Hi Friends,

I had been to the FAIRPRO '09 Fair.My Impression after seeing, is that prices are stagnating for all ongoing projects and builders are trying hard to hold them up.

Prices are 10-20% lower for new projects in the pipeline and for ready to occupy flats.

The discount offered at the stall was very less and were in the range 150-500 Rs/sqft max.

For the benefit of fellow members I am posting the project/price details of some of the properties.



Akshaya Foundations

Adora - OMR - 3750/sqft
Aikya - Adyar - 12500/sqft

Alliance Group - Orchid Springs - 3199/sqft

Arihant Foundations

Heirloom - Thalumbur - 2499/sqft
Escapade - Thoraipakkam - 4150/sqft
Villa Viviana - Maramalai nagar - starting from 1 Crore

Asvini Foundations

Amarisa-phase1 - Ramapuram - 4500/sqft
Amarisa-phase2 - Ramapuram - 4250/sqft
Akshita - Madipakkam - 3800/sqft

Casa Grande

Riveira - Palikkarnai - 3450/sqft - before discount 3600/sqft
Silver Oak - Perungudi - 4300/sqft - before discount 4500/sqft
Madhuban - Madipakkam - 3300 /sqft - before discount 3500/sqft
Mylapore - R.K.salai - 12500/sqft
Plots
Ponmar -785/sqft - before discount 825/sqft
Maraimalainagar - 790/sqft - before discount 825/sqft

CeeDeeyes - Chenni Pattinam

Basic Rate - 1600/sqft All Inclusive - 2075/sqft

Chaitanya shanthiniketan

Sunnyvale - Ayanavaram - 4850/sqft
Serena - Rajkilpakkam - 2550/sqft
Gardenia - OMR - 1900/sqft
Green Park - Chitlapakkam - 3300/sqft

DLF

Gardencity - 3200/sqft - was told slash in prices expected in coming weeks.

Doshi Housing

Etopia I and II - Perungudi - 3895/sqft
Nakshatra - Tambaram - 2995/sqft - Completion May 2010
Tranquil - Velachery - 5500/sqft - Completion February 2010
Trinity park - Santhoshpuram,Vengaivasal - 3195/sqft - Completion April 2009
Serene Couny-Villas - Santhoshpuram,Vengaivasal - 2200,2600/sqft
LlanStephan - Chetpet - 9000/sqft - Completion May 2009
Sri Mahalakshmi - Ayanavaram - 4495/sqft - Ready to Occupy

ETA

Rosedale - OMR - 3100/sqft
Le Chalet - Villas - Sriperambudhur - 26 Lakhs - 37 Lakhs

Hiranandani Upscale - 4200/sqft

Hiranandani Palace Gardens - 3475/sqft

Indus Housing

anantya - Navalur,OMR - 2299/sqft + 400(other charges)
riviera villa - Navalur,OMR - 90 Lakhs onwards
habittera - urapakkam,GST - 2399/sqft + 400(other charges)
amber - Saidapet - 4750/sqft

Jain Housing

Ankush Prakas - Kilpauk - 7500/sqft - Ready to occupy
Amrit Kailash - Strahns Road - 4500/sqft - Ready to occupy
La Gardenia - Nungabakkam - 7500/sqft - Ready to occupy
Ansruta - Valluvarkottam, nungabakkam - 10000/sqft - Ready to occupy
Antariska - Kodambakkam - 4500/sqft - Ready to occupy
Eiffel Garden - Vadapalani - 4250/sqft - Ready to occupy
Saagarika - M.R.C Nagar, sea facing - 10000/12500 - Ready to occupy
Green acres - Pallavaram - 3900/sqft - Ready to occupy
Abhishek - Selaiyur - 3500/sqft - Ready to occupy.

Jamals

Orchid - Palikkarnai - 3500/sqft
Palazzo - keelkattalai - 3700/sqft
Grandeur - Velappanchavadi(near saveetha dental college) - 3200/sqft

KGEYES

3 Projects on L.B.Road, Thiruvanmiyur - 6650/sqft
Delmare - Beach road,Thiruvanmiyur - 7000/sqft
Carolina - Velachery,Taramani - 4500/sqft
Swathi - Sastri Nagar,Adyar - 8500/sqft
Kalakshetra - 8000/sqft

Landmark Constructions

Tiara - Perungudi - 4000/sqft - Completion on August 2009
Aston Ville - Vadapalani - 5500 sqft - Completion on July 2009
Tudors Place - K.K.Nagar - 6500/sqft
The Address - Adyar - 11500/sqft
The Grange - Palavakkam - 7500/sqft
Cenralia - Chrompet - 2950/sqft - prelaunch
Gem Towers - AnnaNagar - To be launched.
Mahalakshmi Heights - Ashok Nagar - To be launched

L&T Estancia
Construction in Progress
1st-3rd Floor - 3950/sqft
4th -12 floor - floor rise charge of 20/sqft for each floor
13th - 17th - 4450/qft

L&T Eden Park - 3600/sqft

Mantri Synergy - OMR
2800/sqft - with 20/floor rise
Special offer - First Floor - all inclusive
1140 sqft - 33,67,000
870 sqft - 28,50,000

Navin Housing

Dayton Heights - Nelson Manickam road - 6500/sqft + 30/sqft floor rise from 2nd floor
Subha Mangala - Ramapuram - 4200/sqft
Brookfield - Nanmangalam - 3500/sqft
Merrylands - Medavakkam - 3500/sqft

Olympia Opaline - 3441/sqft - spl budget flats available

PACE Builders

Anna nagar west - 4195/sqft - before discount 4495/sqft
Selaiyur - 3195/sqft - before discount 3495/sqft
Valasarvakkam - 2795/sqft - before discount 3295/sqft

PS Srijan

The Grand - Velachery - 5250 sqft - before discount 5500/sqft - Floor Rise applicable from 4th floor

Rajparis

Harmony - Medavakkam - 3100/sqft

Rajarathnam Constructions

RC Prince Gardenia - Perambur redhill road,Kolathur - 3600/sqft

Rajkham

Independant houses - Ayyapathangal - 2600/sqft

Real Value

Sai Skanda - Velachery - 4200/sqft
Sai Surya - Palikaranai - 3800/sqft
OMR opp SIPCOT - 13.20 Lakhs onwards

Shriram Properties

Trishakti - SIPCOT - 2750/sqft
Shankari - 1990/sqft

Sidharth foundations

Tulip - k.k.nagar west - 4800/sqft - completion march 2009
Natura - medavakkam - 3100 /sqft - completion july 2009
Visvaleela - Annanagar - 8500 /sqft - to be launched
Dakshin - Urapakkam - price TBD - to be launched
upcoming projects in porur, thoraipakkam, rajkeelpakkam, mogappair.

SIS

Safaa - Urappakam - 3150/sqft

SSPDL

Crescent - Kelambakkam - Vandalur Road - 2500/sqft
Upcoming 2 villa project one in OMR and one in Sriperambathur.

Sumanth & Co

Thiruvanmiyur - 6000/sqft
Besant Nagar - 11500/sqft

TVH

Lumbini square - Pursaiwalkam - 5500/sqft + 30/sqft floor rise from 5th floor
Ouranya Bay(Premium) - OMR,Padur - 3100,3200 + 25/sqft floor rise from 5th floor
Ouranya Bay(Budget) - 2bhk - 20 Lakhs
3bhk - 30 Lakhs
Ekanta - Coimbatore - 3100/sqft
Revata - Mogappair east - 4500/sqft
Kamya - K.K,Nagar - 7000/sqft
Metro Golden Nest - Sriperambathur - 1bhk - 15 Lakhs
2bhk - 22 Lakhs
3bhk - 28 Lakhs

VGN Group

Minerva - Mogappair,Nolumbur - 2975/sqft
3 in 1, 4 in 1 - 3800/sqft
Mahalakshmi Nagar,Thiruverkadu - 3500/sqft
Plots
Mugalivakkam - 52 Lakhs/grnd
Selaiyur - 50 Lakhs/grnd
SPKoil - 34 Lakhs/grnd
Katankulathur - 22-27 Lakhs/grnd

Yuga Homes

Shem Park - chemmenachery - 3300/sqft
Upcoming in Koyambedu, R.A.Puram(8000/sqft)



There are lots of properties and also lots of potential buyers.There is sure a sense of uncertainity among the builders and also the buyers on when to make the next move.It was evident that correction in RE prices have started to happen.

Requesting members to respond with their thoughts on the current trend.
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  • I do not think we can compare Kairali with projects like Vijayshanthi Art, Akshaya Private, Amara Villa, VGN Whatever, etc.

    I was looking at the Kairali floor plan.
    They have small dinky 10X11 rooms. The whole apt itself would be less than 800sqft.
    Kairali is at the most a middle class apt. No multi millionaires will live in such a place.
    No big amenities, no pool, small complex.

    Ceebros is targeting middle class people with such projects, this is not the high end.
    This might be a JV or some small low margin development they might be doing.

    2.6C might be base price, they will tack on other charges and make it 3C.

    I still find value in older apts.
    Instead of spending 3C for such a small 800sqft carpet unit with 500sqft UDS, you can buy a 1200-1300sqft (carpet) older apt with 900-1000sqft UDS.
    I think a good apt in a nice complex like Courtyard would go for 4C and odd, it would have 1800sqft carpet and around 1400sqft UDS atleast.
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  • I do not think we can compare Kairali with projects like Vijayshanthi Art, Akshaya Private, Amara Villa, VGN Whatever, etc.


    That's been my point too and why bring in Art/Amara in to this. You finally came to the point on what started this discussion - Septaa's mention of 1.65 cr ad of a 1850 sq ft apartment and related discussion on whether these 16000 psft apartments make sense for the rental yield etc. As long as you keep the focus on the above and discuss, we are game.

    Ceebros is targeting middle class people with such projects, this is not the high end.
    This might be a JV or some small low margin development they might be doing.

    2.6C might be base price, they will tack on other charges and make it 3C.

    ...
    precisely the point I have been driving at but it failed to get your attention ...how can middle class people can afford such prices with such high carrying cost and meager rental yields..this is the crux of the argument and throw light on how these prices can make sense.

    I was looking at the Kairali floor plan.
    They have small dinky 10X11 rooms.

    .......
    .......

    Dinky or not is besides the point. Equally irrelevant is the point on whether it is a JV or low margin development. How does it matter to the buyer from the value or needs perspective? Keep the mindless buying of multi-millionaire also outside the context.

    No Pool, No amenities etc - exactly my point, our crux of the discussion is on no-frills that command 16000-18000 psft pricing.

    Multi-millionaires do not live in this kind - do I care for where I want to live or whether multi-millionaire lives with me or not. Reasonable gentry can be an attribute one can look at but not how much wealth they carry with them. More wealth can also mean more kinkiness and not necessarily a desirable attribute in Indian environment where one can buy even the laws of the system - dinky can be a better trade off if it can keep that kind away :)

    It is a middle class apartment - yes, this is exactly the class I want your views on, but you keep digressing moving and veering the discussion to Luxury Apts.

    We should not be getting in to resale side to keep slipping away from the crux of the argument - let's avoid another digression.

    However, I can still show lot of resale apartments 3-4 year olds in similar area and class as Kairali asking Rs 14000-Rs 15000 psft. So, Ceebros may look like a value even at Rs 16000 psft on a relative basis in comparison to those. Hence, whether you take Ceebros at Rs 18000-19000 all inclusive or Rs 14000-Rs 15000 psft (excluding registration) may not have much impact on the craziness in the pricing both commands.

    If you bring substantive argument to defend these prices, resale or new do not make a difference - just that one is marginally crappier than another in valuation. Keep your focus to the above if you can defend.
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  • guys , how do i open a new post
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  • Originally Posted by maverick007
    precisely the point I have been driving at but it failed to get your attention ...how can a middle class people can afford such prices with such high carrying cost and meager rental yields..this is the crux of the argument and throw light on how these prices can make sense.


    Well, my take on this is that this is not a middle class area. I do not think middle class people should even look at these locations. Affordability is not even in question in these areas for middle class folks. There are very few homes and flats, the area is already getting gentrified and will become more so.

    Builder has many alternatives for such small projects. He could have just built a small bungalow instead of those dinky apts and sold it for 20-25C. Ceebros might not handle money in black, but there might other ways out if he cannot find a white buyer.
    Smaller projects are not the norm in such areas, you have bigger ticket flats generally.
    Redevelopment projects might be smaller tickets but the last two big land sales (VGN & Akshaya) might not have smaller sized flats for middle class.

    People looking for yield need to look at other areas - more value oriented or affordable areas. They are building thousands of flats in suburbs where IT jobs are there.


    However, I can still show lot of resale apartments 3-4 year olds in similar area and class as Kairali asking Rs 14000-Rs 15000 psft. So, Ceebros may look like a value even at Rs 16000 psft on a relative basis in comparison to those.
    You are trying to standardize the prices with per sqft pricing. Though I agree it is easier to look. But you should look at carpet area, UDS, amenities, high rise/low rise, specs, street to draw comparison. Builder putting crazy loading does skew the numbers.
    Lets give more clarity.

    Ceebros flat is 800sqft carpet at 3C with 500sqft UDS and no amenities in Nungambakkam.

    Is this a good price.
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  • Your earlier post said this:
    Ceebros is targeting middle class people with such projects, this is not the high end
    Recent post:
    Well, my take on this is that this is not a middle class area. I do not think middle class people should even look at these locations.
    Keeping the above confusions apart, Middle class or which class does not matter....I used your notion 'as is' and referred it the same way. Regardless of notional differences, it certainly does not belong to the money splashing class below:

    Who calculates depreciation, returns and all in a luxury car dealership, or at airport before going for vacation, or when planning a massive wedding, etc. I am sure people with lot of money look do not look at housing the same way.


    Do you agree with above, so far?

    If yes, you need to tell which class can buy the Ceebros - Kairali or a 4-5 year old resale with the ask of 10-15% lesser than Kairali and how it can make sense with the carrying cost and other operational overheads..

    Let's also not get in to the judgement on where middle class should buy and whether they should buy in suburbs and how Ceebros should have marketed Kairali differently etc...which is besides the point. I also think Ceebros has a better sense on the market than the sum total of the collective brain in Chennai IREF - it is the reasonable assumption to make given their huge successful past sales record.
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  • Originally Posted by k11
    I do not think we can compare Kairali with projects like Vijayshanthi Art, Akshaya Private, Amara Villa, VGN Whatever, etc.

    I was looking at the Kairali floor plan.
    They have small dinky 10X11 rooms. The whole apt itself would be less than 800sqft.
    Kairali is at the most a middle class apt. No multi millionaires will live in such a place.
    No big amenities, no pool, small complex.

    Ceebros is targeting middle class people with such projects, this is not the high end.
    This might be a JV or some small low margin development they might be doing.

    2.6C might be base price, they will tack on other charges and make it 3C.

    I still find value in older apts.
    Instead of spending 3C for such a small 800sqft carpet unit with 500sqft UDS, you can buy a 1200-1300sqft (carpet) older apt with 900-1000sqft UDS.
    I think a good apt in a nice complex like Courtyard would go for 4C and odd, it would have 1800sqft carpet and around 1400sqft UDS atleast.

    I agree with u on this K11 what suprise me is Ceebros does so many JV hardly does any formal ads one such project has crept on my st in Gopalapuram in one best street call them in this regards was informed itis JV total 19 apartment 11 to landlord any sale nope at the moment no sales in 2 months the property has gone down from a bungalow to vacate plot to a second floor slab when most builders r finding hard to any business this builder time again does project at super speed does not no pre sale my first question is how does he finance this kind of construction activity this project looks like 30000 sqft project total cost would be around 6 to 7 cr say ceebros get around 12000 sqft bare minimum sells at 12000 per sqft he will still make 100% minimum profit may bethis this how he makes money
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  • Originally Posted by maverick007
    Your earlier post said this:
    Recent post:
    Keeping the above confusions apart, Middle class or which class does not matter....I used your notion 'as is' and referred it the same way. Regardless of notional differences, it certainly does not belong to the below:

    Do you agree with above, so far?


    NO
    My view and Ceebros view might not be the same.

    Ceebros will do whatever suits them and makes them money. This could be a JV project, or some share, who knows. Kailari is an exception than a norm in the area.


    If yes, you need to tell which class can buy the Ceebros - Kairali or a 4-5 year old resale with the ask of 10-15% lesser than Kairali and how it can make sense with the carrying cost and other operational overheads..
    My view - To me, Ceebros does not make sense for end use. I would not buy if I was in market. I would not advise anyone to buy this. Those are my views. Ceebros fans might like it.

    Resale apts - Depends, varies case to case. There are many nice older 100% legal buildings with nice layouts, large carpet areas and good UDS would make good buys.

    I do think yeild chasers, rental investors, IT/NRI middle class people should avoid this area, they have other options.
    These areas are for end users.
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  • My view - To me, Ceebros does not make sense for end use. I would not buy if I was in market. I would not advise anyone to buy this. Those are my views. Ceebros fans might like it.

    Resale apts - Depends, varies case to case. There are many nice older 100% legal buildings with nice layouts, large carpet areas and good UDS would make good buys.


    I was referring to the class that Ceebros is targeting and every project has its pluses and minuses.

    I know many in the market looking for good UDS/nicer plans/less loading/good price - they are a rare planetary alignment and don't exist or gets snapped up even before it comes to the market and hence finding one has the odds of locating MH370 in the ocean. Once in a blue-moon opportunity do not make it a trend. Buyers who are tired of finding such rare combinations with plethora of crappy choices often overpay when they find one and hence the 'good price' aspect is a mirage which does not exist.

    We can only assess the current pricing based on what is prevalently available - the likes of 14-16k available in the market today, most of it are crappy valuation wise. End Use is an excuse to take the valuation exception because what one pays does not commensurate with what one is getting - it is the liking that drives the decision. With end-use asset forming the substantial portion of people's networth these days, paying attention to what one pays is prudent for overall financial health - especially for the middle class and upper middle class.
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  • We as consumers have no idea how much debt the RE company r holding since many companies are private company just take the case of VGN. They have 50 million dollars from Ajay primal company 25 million dollars from Kotak bank at high NCD. Nothing bad in taking debt however how many customer know that the property u r investing is hedge to PE funds and bank not sure what is total borrowing however in its press release it stated it is planning to borrow 900 cr to invest in RE that is big amount for company with a paid up capital of 60 cr

    Since RE is so unregulated we see many good developer struggling to manage its repayment I would as a investor would avoid buying a new project and just stick to RTM apartment

    http://www.brickworkratings.com/press-pdf/VGN-Developers-NCD_290Cr-Rationale-18June2013.pdf

    http://www.brickworkratings.com/press-pdf/VGN-Developers-NCD_140Cr-PressRelease-22Mar2013.pdf

    Other project Loan VGN group

    Funding for Projects - (1) Rs. 66 Crores Equipment Funding – SREI BNP Paribas (2) Rs. 40 crores Bank Guarantee Limits Andhra Bank (3) Rs. 15 Crores – Construction Equipment funding ICICI / RELIANCE CAPITAL (4) Rs. 40 Crores - Residential Project Term Loan Union Bank of India (5) Rs. 45 Crores – ICICI Bank Residential Project Term Loan (6) Rs. 45 Crores - Land Loan from Kotak Prime (6) Processing a Term Loanof Rs. 100 Crores for a 1.5 million square feet Residential project
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  • Originally Posted by maverick007
    I was referring to the class that Ceebros is targeting and every project has its pluses and minuses.


    Ceebros target market strategy is also flawed. Though it is 8 apts only and they are all sold.

    I do not think anyone in this forum would get into this project. Nor the yield chasers or IT/NRI middle class people. 3C is not a small amount for most folks for an apt here.

    There was only one guy as far as I know in Chennai section who booked a luxury apt at that type of price range.


    Originally Posted by maverick007

    We can only assess the current pricing based on what is prevalently available - the likes of 14-16k available in the market today, most of it are crappy valuation wise.


    Below Avg apts like Kairali cost 3C - 800sqft carpet and 500sqft UDS in avg street with 8 units.
    Can that be considered as norm for market segment and average price.

    What about 100 apts VGN is launching.
    Vijayshanthi/Akshaya/Amara/Adroit/.... are all much bigger. Ceebros is not even 1% of the inventory in the area. Should we even look at the market segment of at least 60%+ of the new apt inventory and come to conclusion.


    Originally Posted by maverick007

    prudent for overall financial health - especially for the middle class and upper middle class.


    Again I feel, this area is not for them.

    5 years ago or even 3 years, there was some opportunity, still at the higher end of the range. Now it costs close to 4-5C for a decent new apt.

    The area is gentrified. There is no place for middle class here.


    By the way let me know if the definition of middle class changes according to you guys.
    If middle class guys start considering VGN or Akshaya project then I am totally wrong and living in an alternate universe.
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  • Luxury projects set to come up in Chennai


    Chennai’s real estate market has all along been viewed as conservative and predominantly driven by end users. But the recent developments where prime land parcels in city’s strategic locations have been transacted only go to prove that the traditional perception is no longer valid.

    Leading builders in Chennai are now gearing up to develop luxury units across city’s prime locations like Nungambakkam, Egmore, MRC Nagar, Adyar, Poonamallee High road and Mount Road. About 800-1000 residential units in the price range of Rs 5 crore – Rs 15 crore are in various stages for launching in the coming months.

    According to property consultants, it is a moot point to predict how Chennai will respond to the multiple options in luxury categories as and when they are launched in the market. While a few projects are already seeing limited demand for prelaunch offers, others are awaiting an opportune moment to launch the projects.

    This is apart from a few landowners who are also gearing up to develop their properties. Among the leading developers who are gearing up for city project launches include VGN Developers, Vijay Shanthi Builders, Ceebros, TVH, Akshaya, Prince Foundations, BBCL and Khivaraj Estates.

    In a significant development, most of the projects are bought upfront with debt or equity stake in the ventures. Traditionally, Chennai developers have been laying much emphasis on joint venture development with minimal capital outflow but the recent developments have startled market observers when the stake involved is substantial for some of the developers.

    Even individuals who own prime land parcels are now developing on their own by using the services of project management groups and extending lucrative proposals with a hefty prelaunch discount to cover the initial working capital cost. The response to a few projects in city’s prime locations like T Nagar has been encouraging for the landlords to venture into real estate development.

    At a time when hospitality sector occupancy levels are not encouraging, a few hotels have paved way for residential development. The challenges in marketing luxury units are mounting even with high end specifications, involvement of international architects, imported sanitary wares and fittings and ultra modern smart home features.

    What is interesting is that the demand comes not from NRIs/PIOs but from residents, HNIs, senior executives, celebrities and businessmen. But this does not prevent marketing firms to interact with select investor groups in countries like US, Gulf, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.

    V Nagarajan, Bureau
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  • I think Chennai is well behind in terms of high end buildings and branded residences.
    Not only behind Mumbai and Delhi, but cities like Bangalore, Gurgaon and Pune have better choices.

    We do not have Trump, Bulgari, Ritz Carlton, 4 Seasons, W, Virgin, Versace or any such branded residences.
    Nor we have truly high end buildings that developers like Lodha, Oberoi, DLF, etc put together.

    Demand is the biggest question.
    People buy these for end use and how would a propective buyer value such property if he himself has never stayed in one.

    Most NRIs would not buy these, as this might not fit in their lifestyle.
    How many times have we got 'Maintainance charge too high' discussion.

    Most people from southern TN are not even used to living on tall buildings or experience the facilities. I do not think there is even a 20 storey building in TN outside of Chennai.

    Then the remaining city population who have lived in other bigger cosmopolitan cities like Mumbai, Delhi, etc would be right target.
    Mostly they would be some execs, businessmen, etc.
    There might be some companies and embassies buying some units for their employees.
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  • Can change in FSI bring this high unaffordable real estate price down . Going my Hyderabad FSI rule change we have seen property price crash Jayalalita could do this this way bring more supply to the market
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  • Looking at the data from NHB one market which needs to be avoided is chennai given its phenomenal growth in 7 years the index says 300% however in real term it is more like 600% take Anna nagar price per ground in 2007 was less then 60 lakhs today it is close to 6 cr which IMO is too high needs to come to level of 3.6 cr or still less


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  • Originally Posted by Septaa
    Looking at the data from NHB one market which needs to be avoided is chennai given its phenomenal growth in 7 years the index says 300% however in real term it is more like 600% take Anna nagar price per ground in 2007 was less then 60 lakhs today it is close to 6 cr which IMO is too high needs to come to level of 3.6 cr or still less


    Actually many areas including CBD went up by 600%, you should look into details.
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