Hi Friends,

I had been to the FAIRPRO '09 Fair.My Impression after seeing, is that prices are stagnating for all ongoing projects and builders are trying hard to hold them up.

Prices are 10-20% lower for new projects in the pipeline and for ready to occupy flats.

The discount offered at the stall was very less and were in the range 150-500 Rs/sqft max.

For the benefit of fellow members I am posting the project/price details of some of the properties.



Akshaya Foundations

Adora - OMR - 3750/sqft
Aikya - Adyar - 12500/sqft

Alliance Group - Orchid Springs - 3199/sqft

Arihant Foundations

Heirloom - Thalumbur - 2499/sqft
Escapade - Thoraipakkam - 4150/sqft
Villa Viviana - Maramalai nagar - starting from 1 Crore

Asvini Foundations

Amarisa-phase1 - Ramapuram - 4500/sqft
Amarisa-phase2 - Ramapuram - 4250/sqft
Akshita - Madipakkam - 3800/sqft

Casa Grande

Riveira - Palikkarnai - 3450/sqft - before discount 3600/sqft
Silver Oak - Perungudi - 4300/sqft - before discount 4500/sqft
Madhuban - Madipakkam - 3300 /sqft - before discount 3500/sqft
Mylapore - R.K.salai - 12500/sqft
Plots
Ponmar -785/sqft - before discount 825/sqft
Maraimalainagar - 790/sqft - before discount 825/sqft

CeeDeeyes - Chenni Pattinam

Basic Rate - 1600/sqft All Inclusive - 2075/sqft

Chaitanya shanthiniketan

Sunnyvale - Ayanavaram - 4850/sqft
Serena - Rajkilpakkam - 2550/sqft
Gardenia - OMR - 1900/sqft
Green Park - Chitlapakkam - 3300/sqft

DLF

Gardencity - 3200/sqft - was told slash in prices expected in coming weeks.

Doshi Housing

Etopia I and II - Perungudi - 3895/sqft
Nakshatra - Tambaram - 2995/sqft - Completion May 2010
Tranquil - Velachery - 5500/sqft - Completion February 2010
Trinity park - Santhoshpuram,Vengaivasal - 3195/sqft - Completion April 2009
Serene Couny-Villas - Santhoshpuram,Vengaivasal - 2200,2600/sqft
LlanStephan - Chetpet - 9000/sqft - Completion May 2009
Sri Mahalakshmi - Ayanavaram - 4495/sqft - Ready to Occupy

ETA

Rosedale - OMR - 3100/sqft
Le Chalet - Villas - Sriperambudhur - 26 Lakhs - 37 Lakhs

Hiranandani Upscale - 4200/sqft

Hiranandani Palace Gardens - 3475/sqft

Indus Housing

anantya - Navalur,OMR - 2299/sqft + 400(other charges)
riviera villa - Navalur,OMR - 90 Lakhs onwards
habittera - urapakkam,GST - 2399/sqft + 400(other charges)
amber - Saidapet - 4750/sqft

Jain Housing

Ankush Prakas - Kilpauk - 7500/sqft - Ready to occupy
Amrit Kailash - Strahns Road - 4500/sqft - Ready to occupy
La Gardenia - Nungabakkam - 7500/sqft - Ready to occupy
Ansruta - Valluvarkottam, nungabakkam - 10000/sqft - Ready to occupy
Antariska - Kodambakkam - 4500/sqft - Ready to occupy
Eiffel Garden - Vadapalani - 4250/sqft - Ready to occupy
Saagarika - M.R.C Nagar, sea facing - 10000/12500 - Ready to occupy
Green acres - Pallavaram - 3900/sqft - Ready to occupy
Abhishek - Selaiyur - 3500/sqft - Ready to occupy.

Jamals

Orchid - Palikkarnai - 3500/sqft
Palazzo - keelkattalai - 3700/sqft
Grandeur - Velappanchavadi(near saveetha dental college) - 3200/sqft

KGEYES

3 Projects on L.B.Road, Thiruvanmiyur - 6650/sqft
Delmare - Beach road,Thiruvanmiyur - 7000/sqft
Carolina - Velachery,Taramani - 4500/sqft
Swathi - Sastri Nagar,Adyar - 8500/sqft
Kalakshetra - 8000/sqft

Landmark Constructions

Tiara - Perungudi - 4000/sqft - Completion on August 2009
Aston Ville - Vadapalani - 5500 sqft - Completion on July 2009
Tudors Place - K.K.Nagar - 6500/sqft
The Address - Adyar - 11500/sqft
The Grange - Palavakkam - 7500/sqft
Cenralia - Chrompet - 2950/sqft - prelaunch
Gem Towers - AnnaNagar - To be launched.
Mahalakshmi Heights - Ashok Nagar - To be launched

L&T Estancia
Construction in Progress
1st-3rd Floor - 3950/sqft
4th -12 floor - floor rise charge of 20/sqft for each floor
13th - 17th - 4450/qft

L&T Eden Park - 3600/sqft

Mantri Synergy - OMR
2800/sqft - with 20/floor rise
Special offer - First Floor - all inclusive
1140 sqft - 33,67,000
870 sqft - 28,50,000

Navin Housing

Dayton Heights - Nelson Manickam road - 6500/sqft + 30/sqft floor rise from 2nd floor
Subha Mangala - Ramapuram - 4200/sqft
Brookfield - Nanmangalam - 3500/sqft
Merrylands - Medavakkam - 3500/sqft

Olympia Opaline - 3441/sqft - spl budget flats available

PACE Builders

Anna nagar west - 4195/sqft - before discount 4495/sqft
Selaiyur - 3195/sqft - before discount 3495/sqft
Valasarvakkam - 2795/sqft - before discount 3295/sqft

PS Srijan

The Grand - Velachery - 5250 sqft - before discount 5500/sqft - Floor Rise applicable from 4th floor

Rajparis

Harmony - Medavakkam - 3100/sqft

Rajarathnam Constructions

RC Prince Gardenia - Perambur redhill road,Kolathur - 3600/sqft

Rajkham

Independant houses - Ayyapathangal - 2600/sqft

Real Value

Sai Skanda - Velachery - 4200/sqft
Sai Surya - Palikaranai - 3800/sqft
OMR opp SIPCOT - 13.20 Lakhs onwards

Shriram Properties

Trishakti - SIPCOT - 2750/sqft
Shankari - 1990/sqft

Sidharth foundations

Tulip - k.k.nagar west - 4800/sqft - completion march 2009
Natura - medavakkam - 3100 /sqft - completion july 2009
Visvaleela - Annanagar - 8500 /sqft - to be launched
Dakshin - Urapakkam - price TBD - to be launched
upcoming projects in porur, thoraipakkam, rajkeelpakkam, mogappair.

SIS

Safaa - Urappakam - 3150/sqft

SSPDL

Crescent - Kelambakkam - Vandalur Road - 2500/sqft
Upcoming 2 villa project one in OMR and one in Sriperambathur.

Sumanth & Co

Thiruvanmiyur - 6000/sqft
Besant Nagar - 11500/sqft

TVH

Lumbini square - Pursaiwalkam - 5500/sqft + 30/sqft floor rise from 5th floor
Ouranya Bay(Premium) - OMR,Padur - 3100,3200 + 25/sqft floor rise from 5th floor
Ouranya Bay(Budget) - 2bhk - 20 Lakhs
3bhk - 30 Lakhs
Ekanta - Coimbatore - 3100/sqft
Revata - Mogappair east - 4500/sqft
Kamya - K.K,Nagar - 7000/sqft
Metro Golden Nest - Sriperambathur - 1bhk - 15 Lakhs
2bhk - 22 Lakhs
3bhk - 28 Lakhs

VGN Group

Minerva - Mogappair,Nolumbur - 2975/sqft
3 in 1, 4 in 1 - 3800/sqft
Mahalakshmi Nagar,Thiruverkadu - 3500/sqft
Plots
Mugalivakkam - 52 Lakhs/grnd
Selaiyur - 50 Lakhs/grnd
SPKoil - 34 Lakhs/grnd
Katankulathur - 22-27 Lakhs/grnd

Yuga Homes

Shem Park - chemmenachery - 3300/sqft
Upcoming in Koyambedu, R.A.Puram(8000/sqft)



There are lots of properties and also lots of potential buyers.There is sure a sense of uncertainity among the builders and also the buyers on when to make the next move.It was evident that correction in RE prices have started to happen.

Requesting members to respond with their thoughts on the current trend.
Read more
Reply
2345 Replies
Sort by :Filter by :
  • Originally Posted by contra
    Can't understand how people are still expecting RE to bottom out.


    Whether the market should be timed and how to identify the bottom were my first questions when I joined this forum.

    Got some useful replies from Wiseman that helped me form a opinion.

    It is widely agreed that bottom can be identified only in hindsight, not while its happening.Trying too much to time the market is also considered to be counter-productive.

    I will not be convinced that we have hit the bottom unless I see considerable 10% sustainable appreciation over earlier price.

    Since we dont have 52 week high/low for RE to identify the attractiveness, I believe its safe to invest in good location only when the markets look up, and not blindly in the hope that it will go up even further while prices are correcting downwards.

    Though when we buy RE doesnt matter in the long term, It is vital because entry is tied to affordability and the exit prospects depends on the location.

    With the possibility of another wave of correction imminent, The huge savings one could earn by investing the 10-20% extra cash elsewhere and the amount of interest outing one can avoid in case of home loans coupled with the insecure job environment are reasons strong enough to wait till the bottom.

    If someone could post data of any increase in price between the enquires they have made recently it will be very useful.

    Would like to also hear about additional methods to identify that bottom while trying to time the market.

    It shall help everyone make an informed decision and arrive at a "Buy-Now" Indicator.
    CommentQuote
  • With RE not having an index independantly (RE shares do not mean a thing!), all those bottoming, dow theory, TA dont really matter. So what you are saying might not work, Nabhishek. A mental pulse and personal data gathering is the only way. For example I track the price of my properties and use that as data for TA (technical analysis). So u got to do it that way. Until an index exists, there will be this bull bear friction. Even after an index exists it wont really mean that folks here will understand when to buy or sell. Do they understand the same in stock markets?
    CommentQuote
  • A refrresher to figure out bottom ...

    Originally Posted by nabishek
    Whether the market should be timed and how to identify the bottom were my first questions when I joined this forum.

    Got some useful replies from Wiseman that helped me form a opinion.

    It is widely agreed that bottom can be identified only in hindsight, not while its happening.Trying too much to time the market is also considered to be counter-productive.

    I will not be convinced that we have hit the bottom unless I see considerable 10% sustainable appreciation over earlier price.

    Since we dont have 52 week high/low for RE to identify the attractiveness, I believe its safe to invest in good location only when the markets look up, and not blindly in the hope that it will go up even further while prices are correcting downwards.

    Though when we buy RE doesnt matter in the long term, It is vital because entry is tied to affordability and the exit prospects depends on the location.

    With the possibility of another wave of correction imminent, The huge savings one could earn by investing the 10-20% extra cash elsewhere and the amount of interest outing one can avoid in case of home loans coupled with the insecure job environment are reasons strong enough to wait till the bottom.

    If someone could post data of any increase in price between the enquires they have made recently it will be very useful.

    Would like to also hear about additional methods to identify that bottom while trying to time the market.

    It shall help everyone make an informed decision and arrive at a "Buy-Now" Indicator.



    Nabishek,

    Thanks for your vote of confidence. I was losing confidence that people will never learn as they have been fed on this last 5 years of excess-credit fuelled bull-bull-bullcrap! :D

    The stock markets teach you a thing or two about timing the change in trends. Besides a sustained 10% increase in prices, you might also add another bunch of indicators:

    - Stabilization of job scene with more jobs added than lost
    - Stabilization of salaries
    - Significant increase in volumes of enquiries as well as bookings of RE
    - Higher bottoms in Stock Indices with sustained increase in volumes

    One of the most important (if not the most important) indicators of a major bottom is the total capitulation / surrender of the bulls resulting in total disinterest (almost hate) towards the asset class and a general feeling in the market that there is no foreseeable bottom. This happened in 1998 before that crash ended 80% from the top. Seeing the enthusiasm of the youngsters to jump in every 15% decline in prices crying "bottom, bottom" confirms to me that this is yet another false bottom!

    Obviously we are also looking at sustained increase in World Trade, exports, etc - which btw will take some years under present circumstances!!!

    Please note that the Stock Market is a definitive leading indicator of underlying trends by a margin of 6 - 9 months. I have been saying this from the beginning and it is now percolating into people's understanding and they are starting to appreciate these empiricals-based thumbrules.

    RE will bottom out and pick up only when underlying fundamental reasons turn around in a sustained way!!!

    cheers
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by nabishek


    It shall help everyone make an informed decision and arrive at a "Buy-Now" Indicator.


    Nabhishek,

    Even if someone knows the "Buy-Now" indicator do you think he/she will share it with everyone rather then keep it to themselves.

    So called experts will share the tricks and write "how to succed" "best investment" those kind of books only after their own investments have substancially increased so that they can sell them to others. Then people like you will admire such experts, buy such books and invest at Rs.4000 when same thing was available at Rs.1000 just before that expert came into picture. Ofcourse Rs.4000 is also a good buy, because tomorrow it could reach Rs.8000. But than if you had listened to your own insights then wait for some expert to guide your thoughts you could have got 800% appreciation then just 50% appreciation.

    Today before another big expected rise in the future, when Natraj and myself are giving free advice that it is better to invest/buy real estate in India now then in future when prices will be higher due to global monetary liquidity being unleased, you are saying Wiseman has guided you not to buy. What can we do.

    Just because prices have gone up 8-10 times from 2004 does not mean that real estate is a bubble. Infact this could just be a beginning and in future prices can go to even higher levels.
    CommentQuote
  • The question is why?!

    Originally Posted by contra
    Nabhishek,

    Even if someone knows the "Buy-Now" indicator do you think he/she will share it with everyone rather then keep it to themselves.

    So called experts will share the tricks and write "how to succed" "best investment" those kind of books only after their own investments have substancially increased so that they can sell them to others. Then people like you will admire such experts, buy such books and invest at Rs.4000 when same thing was available at Rs.1000 just before that expert came into picture. Ofcourse Rs.4000 is also a good buy, because tomorrow it could reach Rs.8000. But than if you had listened to your own insights then wait for some expert to guide your thoughts you could have got 800% appreciation then just 50% appreciation.

    Today before another big expected rise in the future, when Natraj and myself are giving free advice that it is better to invest/buy real estate in India now then in future when prices will be higher due to global monetary liquidity being unleased, you are saying Wiseman has guided you not to buy. What can we do.

    Just because prices have gone up 8-10 times from 2004 does not mean that real estate is a bubble. Infact this could just be a beginning and in future prices can go to even higher levels.



    Contra,

    Price rise is universal - except maybe for electronics where price-performance is always declining (meaning price is coming down for a given level of performance).

    So you will find that rice, which was Rs.5 a decade or so ago is now Rs.40 and so on.

    So, saying that buy now so that you can see it go up in 10 years is a no-brainer.

    What Mr. Wiseman is saying is that for the moment, RE has gotten ahead of its intrinsic value. And this has been going on for the last 5 years. While longterm rise in asset prices is a given, it is all about the relative rise in asset values and what would be the opportune moment to buy your most valuable asset - RE.

    If the longterm increase in asset prices like land is around 13% - 15% compounded, then a 6 times rise in 5 years giving a CAGR of 43% will not sustain. If it is to sustain, then the land/flat you buy now for 1C should be
    35 Crores in 10 years and 1275 Crores in 20 years.

    For prices to correct to match a 15% CAGR from 2004 prices, then it should take 13 years from 2004, which gives us a dateline of 2017. Maybe it may be a little shorter, but this is the likely timeline.

    This could take either of 2 trajectories.

    1. It could remain relatively flat till an inflation adjusted price of 2008 peak is reached by 2015-17. So, while price remains same for the next 8-10 years, your money will be worth far less then as now.

    2. Price could correct significantly and then rise significantly to give you the same result.

    Either way, I would like my money to gain in relative value so that, when I buy property, I will still be getting it much cheaper than if I bought it now and sat on it till 2015-17.

    Was my argument clear? :D

    cheers
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by wiseman
    Contra,

    Price rise is universal - except maybe for electronics where price-performance is always declining (meaning price is coming down for a given level of performance).

    So you will find that rice, which was Rs.5 a decade or so ago is now Rs.40 and so on.

    So, saying that buy now so that you can see it go up in 10 years is a no-brainer.

    What Mr. Wiseman is saying is that for the moment, RE has gotten ahead of its intrinsic value. And this has been going on for the last 5 years. While longterm rise in asset prices is a given, it is all about the relative rise in asset values and what would be the opportune moment to buy your most valuable asset - RE.

    If the longterm increase in asset prices like land is around 13% - 15% compounded, then a 6 times rise in 5 years giving a CAGR of 43% will not sustain. If it is to sustain, then the land/flat you buy now for 1C should be
    35 Crores in 10 years and 1275 Crores in 20 years.

    For prices to correct to match a 15% CAGR from 2004 prices, then it should take 13 years from 2004, which gives us a dateline of 2017. Maybe it may be a little shorter, but this is the likely timeline.

    This could take either of 2 trajectories.

    1. It could remain relatively flat till an inflation adjusted price of 2008 peak is reached by 2015-17. So, while price remains same for the next 8-10 years, your money will be worth far less then as now.

    2. Price could correct significantly and then rise significantly to give you the same result.

    Either way, I would like my money to gain in relative value so that, when I buy property, I will still be getting it much cheaper than if I bought it now and sat on it till 2015-17.

    Was my argument clear? :D

    cheers


    Just a real layman example without using any CAGR calculations etc.

    In 1979 a property in south bangalore was priced at Rs.20000 only when it was alloted by Karnataka Housing Board(KHB). In 1999 after 20 years, the price of that property was Rs.20 lacs.

    If past was an indicator than in 2019 that same property should be Rs.20 crores. At present in 2009 it is still available at Rs.1.25 Crore.
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by wiseman
    Contra,

    Price rise is universal - except maybe for electronics where price-performance is always declining (meaning price is coming down for a given level of performance).

    So you will find that rice, which was Rs.5 a decade or so ago is now Rs.40 and so on.

    So, saying that buy now so that you can see it go up in 10 years is a no-brainer.

    What Mr. Wiseman is saying is that for the moment, RE has gotten ahead of its intrinsic value. And this has been going on for the last 5 years. While longterm rise in asset prices is a given, it is all about the relative rise in asset values and what would be the opportune moment to buy your most valuable asset - RE.

    If the longterm increase in asset prices like land is around 13% - 15% compounded, then a 6 times rise in 5 years giving a CAGR of 43% will not sustain. If it is to sustain, then the land/flat you buy now for 1C should be
    35 Crores in 10 years and 1275 Crores in 20 years.

    For prices to correct to match a 15% CAGR from 2004 prices, then it should take 13 years from 2004, which gives us a dateline of 2017. Maybe it may be a little shorter, but this is the likely timeline.

    This could take either of 2 trajectories.

    1. It could remain relatively flat till an inflation adjusted price of 2008 peak is reached by 2015-17. So, while price remains same for the next 8-10 years, your money will be worth far less then as now.

    2. Price could correct significantly and then rise significantly to give you the same result.

    Either way, I would like my money to gain in relative value so that, when I buy property, I will still be getting it much cheaper than if I bought it now and sat on it till 2015-17.

    Was my argument clear? :D

    cheers

    Aha, again Wiseman caught red handed. He says "What Mr. Wiseman is saying" in third person. So Wiseman has mistakenly assumed he has logged in into another of his million fake ids here to praise himself la Mr. Wiseman and unfortunately forgotten it is his original id.
    Now we all know why WISEMAN is CONMAN. Cheers.
    CommentQuote
  • The current RE boom caused big appreciations (800-1000%) only in the outskirts and emerging locations like velachery, porur (Chennai) or Whitefield, Hebbal (Bangalore) or Gurgaon(Delhi).

    Areas in city limits like Besant Nagar (Chennai) or Jayanagar 9th block (Bangalore) though they seem highly priced have seen only moderate 300-400% appreciation which makes them still a buy and undervalued considering their historical average.
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by Natarajg007
    Aha, again Wiseman caught red handed. He says "What Mr. Wiseman is saying" in third person. So Wiseman has mistakenly assumed he has logged in into another of his million fake ids here to praise himself la Mr. Wiseman and unfortunately forgotten it is his original id.
    Now we all know why WISEMAN is CONMAN. Cheers.



    Imbecile!!!
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by wiseman
    Imbecile!!!

    Is that a new id you are going to use WIseman?
    CommentQuote
  • You are falling into a classic trap!

    Originally Posted by contra
    Just a real layman example without using any CAGR calculations etc.

    In 1979 a property in south bangalore was priced at Rs.20000 only when it was alloted by Karnataka Housing Board(KHB). In 1999 after 20 years, the price of that property was Rs.20 lacs.

    If past was an indicator than in 2019 that same property should be Rs.20 crores. At present in 2009 it is still available at Rs.1.25 Crore.



    Contra,

    There are 2 classic mistakes in the arguments above.

    First taking a special/exceptional case of a particular location and making a generalization of it!

    Second, taking a special/exceptional case of a particular wildly speculative price rise and making a generalization of it!

    The second one is akin to driving looking into the rear view mirror.

    To afford this 20C land in 2019, you should be able to put down 2C in cash and have a monthly EMI of 18 lakhs. So, your salary should be at least 28 lakhs since tax would take away 30% which would be around 8 lakhs.

    Do you really think there would be millions of people in India earning 30 lakhs per month in 2019?

    Well, in that case, rice would be Rs 2400 per kg (60 times current price) and petrol around Rs 5000 per litre!!!

    Still think your argument holds? :D

    cheers
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by Natarajg007
    Is that a new id you are going to use WIseman?


    Nope. Its the new one you have crowned yourself with, without a doubt! Now, run along and play your juvenile games somewhere else! Serious adults are trying to do something worthwhile on this board and not trying to be a failed engineer, failed s/w professional and now a failed Realtor!

    Nats, find some people your abysmal mental age and go play with them!

    cheers
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by wiseman
    Contra,

    There are 2 classic mistakes in the arguments above.

    First taking a special/exceptional case of a particular location and making a generalization of it!

    Second, taking a special/exceptional case of a particular wildly speculative price rise and making a generalization of it!

    The second one is akin to driving looking into the rear view mirror.

    To afford this 20C land in 2019, you should be able to put down 2C in cash and have a monthly EMI of 18 lakhs. So, your salary should be at least 28 lakhs since tax would take away 30% which would be around 8 lakhs.

    Do you really think there would be millions of people in India earning 30 lakhs per month in 2019?

    Well, in that case, rice would be Rs 2400 per kg (60 times current price) and petrol around Rs 5000 per litre!!!

    Still think your argument holds? :D

    cheers

    Fella talking of driving using rear view mirror when he himself uses USA as a reference to find what will happen in India. IN other words Wiseman will always choose what he likes from wherever he wants to TRY TO PROVE his point and wont let his opponent prove the same using the same example. So he can use USA RE fall and predict Indian RE fall and if it does not happen he will insist it will.
    Wiseman, u aint driving using rear mirror, u r actually hallucinating as if u r driving when u just dont know how a car looks like! LOL!
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by wiseman
    Nope. Its the new one you have crowned yourself with, without a doubt! Now, run along and play your juvenile games somewhere else! Serious adults are trying to do something worthwhile on this board and not trying to be a failed engineer, failed s/w professional and now a failed Realtor!

    Nats, find some people your abysmal mental age and go play with them!

    cheers

    Ok dont cry baby. Ur name has been stated in that earlier post. Do I need say more? As u feel, u dont like Makku man, but prefer Imbecile! So let it be so!
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by wiseman
    Nope. Its the new one you have crowned yourself with, without a doubt! Now, run along and play your juvenile games somewhere else! Serious adults are trying to do something worthwhile on this board and not trying to be a failed engineer, failed s/w professional and now a failed Realtor!

    Nats, find some people your abysmal mental age and go play with them!

    cheers

    U know what Mr. I. I went long on DJI and how did I know it will shoot up. I did it at 8250 levels. And u want to teach me how to buy strangles.
    There are losers. Great losers who accept loss. Smart losers who learn from losing. However u r a wrangling loser. U say u aint a loser even after u have been proved wrong a hundred times. Actually u r right. I shouldnt be talking to a juvenile like u. Unfortunately this board is filled with a lot of adults.
    WHy not u get ur juvenile buddies to write on a separate forum alongwith u? Nobody will come and trouble u! HOw is that?
    By the way what is the name of that college of yours next only to IIMA? ROTFL.
    CommentQuote