No exclusive thread for Hiranandani Upscale OMR project. Thought of creating one so that we can follow the developments, Rental yields, Issues and other topics.

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  • @Economist,

    I hope you won't mind if I borrow the advise you gave to wiseman and tell the same to RaviCBE.


    https://www.indianrealestateforum.com/forum/other-forums/general-real-estate-discussion/725-real-estate-in-india?p=116862#post116862


    @RaviCBE,

    Instead of writing essays showering praises on Hiranandani and vividly describing every minor aspects like lawns and yawns, it would be great if you can just address the concerns or queries raised by other members.
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by RaviCbe
    I did not arrogantly presume but adequately posted to someone who posts out of Context without any ideas and not against your posts amd views .

    Let me clarify . Total master plan for the township sprawling in 110 acres can not be prepared overnight with changed rules and regulation from time to time but plan can be prepared based on existing rules for next 2- 4 years and accordingly they marked Phase 1 and 2 in master plan clearly by earmarking space,Compound wall,slots,amenities etc leaving the future phases. There are no space withheld from phase 1 and 2 buyers that can be used for future phases as comprehended by you. As such they freezed the Road,club house,schools very clearly and gifted roads to Local Body along with OSR .

    Hence 28 floors constructed in phase 1 was not disturbed though they managed to get 36 floors for Bayview, 31 floors for Edina and 45 floors for Seagull with changed rule and increased FSI . It will affect extra land in those areas where Seagull is coming up ...they have to allocate more space to take care of that vertical growth and increased car slots .

    SA, SEZ,HOTEL,HOSPITAL etc will be taken up when township is halfway through that is phase 2 is over with Amalfi and Seagull by 2020 in reality.There are spaces marked for all these things but not shown in layout since it has not been taken for construction nor for approval with plan .

    Hence completed Phase 1 is well insulated with rights on opens pace, roads,amenities,School etc in secured way .Same too applies for Phase 2 .

    If Hira goes bankrupt, his bankers have got the right to appoint suitable developer in remaining phases and blocks without disturbing the existing completed phases with same roads entry and exit with proposed towers only with the consent of Existing Owners . Hira is holding the rights on space around buildings only to beautify with park,garden ,trees etc in such a way that it adds value to the buildings but not to construct in small way anything other than that as per agreement clause and terms . If this is handed over to Assn, Each Assn may misuse as per their whims and fancies which will alter the image of township which houses Residential,Commercial,SA,Hotels,Hospital,School etc are the cause of concern and copy of concept from Mumbai

    Hence nearby school, SA,SEZ,HOTEL,HOSPITAL will not come up as School layout has been frozen .

    IMO, It will take another 30 years to exhaust 60 acres ( 5 years taken for exhausting 10 acres) since around 40 acres will be towards OSR,EWS,OPEN SPACE,ROADS ,AMENITIES etc

    If Hira goes bankrupt after completing the construction of township and goes bankrupt, Owners will effectively take control and maintain and manage the township when individually , Assn is formed for each tower and phase level and managed in micro level at tower level for day to day living.

    Hira too will award the Contract for each service to Reputed contractors to maintain as per terms stipulated and it is not going to be deterrent factor in any way.


    Thanks for clarifying. I hope you didnt take offence to my post, That wasnt my intention. I am just trying to play devil's advocate here saying all may not be hunky dory and potential buyers should be aware of the risks involved. If someone could stomach that they may well be rewarded given HIRA's reputation.

    By the way, You have brought a new point here, so you are saying that HIRA also dont own the land. They have pledged it to their banks. Now thats even more scarier. The recourse you have stated, is it on your agreement?or just understanding? As owners of HIRA township are you in position to demand performance from their maintainence wing? do you have a say to whom contract for supply of water is awarded to? I feel their strategy is non-competitive and monopolizing.

    I still dont buy your point that

    "Each buyers interest is protected in his particular tower adequately while all towers owners interest are adequately covered in common areas like Road,Amenities,School,Hospital etc which is maintained and managed by Hira or their Contractors is the concept of Township."

    With cost of living in OMR getting costlier everyday, Buyers of HIRA should realize if tomorrow HIRA demands 50 rs/sqft maintanence and you default with payment. They can deny water/current/access to common area/club houst etc belonging to your own apartment and block/phase.

    It would be all fine to say that government is inefficient and with private developers we can demand better service/quality etc. One should be aware that all these would come with premium cost attached to it. Dont want to sound like a socialist, but only the government is capable of taking decision with a non-profit motive and provide subsidy.HIRA by not distributing the land to rightful owners are trying to deny owners authority to question their actions. They are trying to exploit and milk the township literally forever. With Builders like HIRA for whom profit-making is the only motive its hard for me to assume they will be fair and wont discriminate between owners who are willing to pay more and those who are just tenants. I just want buyers to be aware of the risk and ensure they are protected, thats all.
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  • You are yet reply several queries raised but here talking about cock n bull stories. You write always in other threads just for escapism .

    Post 05.08.2012 by L4L about Hira in LNT EP thread within " " typically like a +2 Exam Student is reproduced . He blasted Adyar,NAPC with last comments adding as RO why he was pulled to Siruseri .Sounds astonishing with gyration


    OMR prices are so low sometimes all of these things do not matter a lot.


    "You mean it matters for someone buying Seagull for 7500 psf?"

    When it comes to resale, if the land is cheap any builder will put up an apt complex.

    "You are still going back to land cost, construction cost age old formula. Unfortunately it doesn't matter to someone buying Oceanic, leave alone Hira's Signature tower Seagull. Of course builders like NAPC, Srinivasa, Arihant and Akshaya are going to struggle. "


    Today it is Green 201. Tomorrow it could be another no name builder.
    When they sell an apt for 3000, how can investors sell an older unit at better project for 4000.

    "Yes, anyone selling tomorrow will have problem, but how about a few years from now? Appreciation in Hebbal is lower and resale is definitely below cost price but why are luxury apartments coming all over that area?"

    Supply is kind of unlimited (looks like it for now) as lot of these projects are springing up. Big builders will have to compete with smaller ones.

    "The way Hira is pricing their new towers, looks like they are hardly concerned. I heard in another forum a typical Seagul duplex unit at high floor will cost upto 10 crores. "


    Only advantage they have is better planning, lower material costs, biggest one is funding costs.
    Smaller guys can work with lowest margin but their biggest expense is funding.

    "Yawn. Again trying to work through cost and forgetting "premium" factor."

    Brand name can work only to an extent, 25% premium is no brainer to go for Branded.
    When the premium is 70-80%, it become hard decision (Hira vs NAPC).

    "Let us see when someone confirm Seagull price and sales details. If it is successful it is going to be more expensive than apartments in heart of city (just comparing all inclusive cost and not psf or floor area). Sobha salesperson said they have already sold 4 units of their super luxury units to a single corporate entity. Even a very high floor Amalfi unit will give apartments in CBD their run for money. "

    In City, Land cost is high so you do not see that kind of premium

    TVH Adyar, DLF Egmore, etc will have less than 20% premium over small builder projects

    "Not necessary, TVH and DLF confirmed they had priced their apartment lower due to comfortable profit margin. Other builders in Adyar area also confirmed they were caught by surprise by TVH pricing and are in tough situation. Of course you'll now say Adyar and Besant nagar are crappy areas and not worth even 13000 psf

    I welcome your comments.

    Lets put it in Buyer's perspective. What we think is not always what buyers want.

    Even I was intrigued by buyers preference for Hira's super luxury apartment in remote godforsaken place over normal apartment in heart of city, that's what pulled me into this Siruseri vortex."

    Originally Posted by Love4land
    @Economist,

    I hope you won't mind if I borrow the advise you gave to wiseman and tell the same to RaviCBE.


    https://www.indianrealestateforum.com/forum/other-forums/general-real-estate-discussion/725-real-estate-in-india?p=116862#post116862


    @RaviCBE,

    Instead of writing essays showering praises on Hiranandani and vividly describing every minor aspects like lawns and yawns, it would be great if you can just address the concerns or queries raised by other members.
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  • Hira has not pledged common area but builtup area for working capital which gets adjusted from the Receivables from buyers and get closed automatically when construction is over .There is no risk here as sanctioning bank gets the fund in time before CC.

    Once a tower is built and handed over, it is not getting affected further from future regulatory changes and only that future tower will be subject to increased FSI or other changes.

    If maint charge is demanded at 50 per sqft .....is beyond imagination though it may become reality too for entire OMR . Let us see and face when it happens . I can not afford to own and drive my car
    expecting the future Peteol price of 300 per litre. What is common to all is common at times .

    Two WTPs have been installed for Water with STP in township as per the mail received from Hira and CMWSSB is gearing up for water line by 2013 from Desalination plant from ECR besides 2 STPs in Shol.

    You may note when we seriously discuss, Veteran Member L4L as usual dance like a child and hence my strong MSG which by now you may understand . He opened a new thread General Discussion and concentrate project specific matters here but evades and refrains as usual .


    Originally Posted by nabishek
    Thanks for clarifying. I hope you didnt take offence to my post, That wasnt my intention. I am just trying to play devil's advocate here saying all may not be hunky dory and potential buyers should be aware of the risks involved. If someone could stomach that they may well be rewarded given HIRA's reputation.

    By the way, You have brought a new point here, so you are saying that HIRA also dont own the land. They have pledged it to their banks. Now thats even more scarier. The recourse you have stated, is it on your agreement?or just understanding? As owners of HIRA township are you in position to demand performance from their maintainence wing? do you have a say to whom contract for supply of water is awarded to? I feel their strategy is non-competitive and monopolizing.

    I still dont buy your point that

    "Each buyers interest is protected in his particular tower adequately while all towers owners interest are adequately covered in common areas like Road,Amenities,School,Hospital etc which is maintained and managed by Hira or their Contractors is the concept of Township."

    With cost of living in OMR getting costlier everyday, Buyers of HIRA should realize if tomorrow HIRA demands 50 rs/sqft maintanence and you default with payment. They can deny water/current/access to common area/club houst etc belonging to your own apartment and block/phase.

    It would be all fine to say that government is inefficient and with private developers we can demand better service/quality etc. One should be aware that all these would come with premium cost attached to it. Dont want to sound like a socialist, but only the government is capable of taking decision with a non-profit motive and provide subsidy.HIRA by not distributing the land to rightful owners are trying to deny owners authority to question their actions. They are trying to exploit and milk the township literally forever. With Builders like HIRA for whom profit-making is the only motive its hard for me to assume they will be fair and wont discriminate between owners who are willing to pay more and those who are just tenants. I just want buyers to be aware of the risk and ensure they are protected, thats all.
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  • Mr RaviCbe,

    I think the point raised about maintenance charges is to highlight the mentality of HIRA which does not care about occupants mind set towards increase in maintenance and they can very well charge very high premium as compared to rest of the communities which are managed by association where profit-making is not their sole motive and their operations have to be transparent in a democratic setup (may give raise to initial chaos but when the dust settle down things may be different).

    When HIRA determines rates it need not take your views into account unlike a normal community which is governed through association by-laws.

    May be if HIRA can establish similar setup in each tower and if it can negotiate rates differently (based on the service levels) then it becomes a different story.
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  • Originally Posted by Love4land
    @Economist,

    I hope you won't mind if I borrow the advise you gave to wiseman and tell the same to RaviCBE.


    https://www.indianrealestateforum.com/forum/other-forums/general-real-estate-discussion/725-real-estate-in-india?p=116862#post116862


    @RaviCBE,

    Instead of writing essays showering praises on Hiranandani and vividly describing every minor aspects like lawns and yawns, it would be great if you can just address the concerns or queries raised by other members.


    @L4L,
    We are witnessing a nice flowing discussion here. On behalf of forumers, I request you not to spoil it and take your provoking poops elsewhere.

    On topic, I have to agree with nabhishek. No matter what the reputation of the builder is(as he rightly says no builder is here to do charity) and what the current rules are (we all know how rules get changed to serve the powerful and how invisible loopholes can be found even in the current rules), it is always a risk if the builder does not freeze the plans at the time of the CMDA approval, that is, before the time of our booking. At the end of the day, the builders have too much power than us, more so if they are backed by technical legalities, which seems to be the case with this project. So better to be wary than to be sorry. Also, it is much safer if the builder has a set period within which they will hand over the maintenance to the association.
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  • Water,STP etc will be controlled by Hira initially as they have 2 Plants until the Desalination plant water from ECR comes into the Project ( arrangements are being done by Govt) and STP too by 2013 .Besides EB will be controlled by TNEB but Genset again pay as per use until situation gets improved.

    Rest of the maint comes from Club house,Pool etc will be individually controlled by Each Phase according to the desired level of occupants well within their paying capacity at reasonable rate and service level . If they raise beyond the reasonable level, one may stop paying and stop using it . Something like EB, pay as per use .

    Hira permits outsiders to use Pool,Club,Restaurants too to contain and spread the cost in maintenance point of view like Hotel where outsiders on chargeable basis permitted to use Gym, Pool etc when Occupants are not always using .

    Maint charges must be well within the acceptable and service level in both sides and neither occupants can question when it is "actually " high nor Service provider can maintain properly when receivables are "lower " than their basic running and maintenance costs.

    Your last para is clearly describing what they are going to offer individually phase wise . One can not afford to avail the premium services offered at Seagull tower Amenities for that matter by living in Phase 1 is the crux of the matter whereas any one living in Township can avail the School facilities at par with each other. Service offerings and it's level and expectation by occupants vary from phase to phase and individually too .

    They collecetd 18 months charges to start with after that they will handover that to Assn which will decide the basic required amenities as per majority of the occupants and decide the optimum cost by selecting service provider of Gym maint,pool maint,etc. along with Hira .

    After all the Club house and other amenities are constructed at Buyers cost and will be effectively controlled by Assn and Hira as per Agreement terms . If maint charges increased to sky high level , many owners in Assn who do not use facilities often will stop using and paying for it and the same needs to be shutdown in Normal Projects but here Hiras role is to maintain the club house without shutting down for the benefit of needy owners at any cost . Hence they control the common amenities right from Borewells,STP,SCHOOL,SA,HOSPITAL like Powai and many invested including me After knowing the implications and it's importance of maintenance when it is done by Owners Assn and Developer for ever.

    The concept difference comes in between "owners owned " common amenities and "Developers owned " common amenities for proper maintenance while UDS and Ownesrship rights in each tower is well protected legally with access to Road in all sides

    Originally Posted by Ramchi
    Mr RaviCbe,

    I think the point raised about maintenance charges is to highlight the mentality of HIRA which does not care about occupants mind set towards increase in maintenance and they can very well charge very high premium as compared to rest of the communities which are managed by association where profit-making is not their sole motive and their operations have to be transparent in a democratic setup (may give raise to initial chaos but when the dust settle down things may be different).

    When HIRA determines rates it need not take your views into account unlike a normal community which is governed through association by-laws.

    May be if HIRA can establish similar setup in each tower and if it can negotiate rates differently (based on the service levels) then it becomes a different story.
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  • Abishek/ Ramchi /Others

    Upscale is not going to be the end/last project for hira nandani co. If they try to start monopoly in case of maintenance charge don't you feel that it will affect their business across the nation. I hope the voice of thousand residents will not resides inside the integrated township in case of any monopoly business starts.

    More over the residents/people now are not so naive. They know how to handle in case of the maintenance charge off balance to the current rates/prevailing rates. off course there will be premium tag attache to everything i Hope the purchasers are well known off.

    Regarding the master plan, I will second Ravi view, you can not close 110 acreas master plan in day one. it will evolves by period.

    it is very nice to have replies with valid posts. thanks a ton
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  • I believe the crux of matter here is UDS and future plans by the builder with change in regulatory environment. Probably bit more understanding on the ownership model will throw some clarity.

    Hira's business plan is not unique (but novelty to Chennai) and most of the developed RE market operates in similar model. All land ownership is defined by 1. Freehold 2. Share of Freehold and 3. Leasehold. Potentially all flats are leasehold only- it can be anywhere between 20 yrs to 999 yrs, exc point no.1 where you own out-right (Detached/independent homes).

    Share of Freehold and Leasehold permits you to own the interior of flats (w/o structural changes), no rights to modify exteriors. You can utilize common areas as long as you own the flat, land ownership lies with business or land-owner. Land rents need to be paid for every-year, generally bought outright for XX years as lease extension. Freehold and share of Freehold owners can decide on maintenance partner. Now the difference here is there are regulations that entitle you to buy share of freehold from leasehold, when more than 50% of owners bid for it, after staying minimum of 3 years. Business can't quote arbitrary figure for land rent (potentially few 100£/year) . I reckon it's bit of grey area at the moment in India.

    What Hira does on their future plan and risks to the existing and prospectiver owners- comes more from lack of clarity or understanding on the freehold model. Hira can modify their master plan for the balance 60 acres (not existing plan), based on the regulatory requirement on the day they decide. I do not see it as deviation, when they haven't exhibited their master plan for other phases.

    The inherent risk for existing users ,being alluded- when FSI is raised- I believe it's not worth the pain for township promoter, when he holds more than 70% of balance land. Reputational damage and litigation will have much more impact than gains. I'm not ruling out the remote possibility, but it's more feasible at smaller developments, than township business model.

    The quantum of risk may vary, but no different from any other flat owners (when road-widening or construction activity carried out by Govt, irrespective of individual holding 100% of UDS). The caveat to be watched out here is on the SLA compliance for maintenance and corresponding costs.
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  • Originally Posted by Arunag
    Abishek/ Ramchi /Others

    Upscale is not going to be the end/last project for hira nandani co. If they try to start monopoly in case of maintenance charge don't you feel that it will affect their business across the nation. I hope the voice of thousand residents will not resides inside the integrated township in case of any monopoly business starts.

    More over the residents/people now are not so naive. They know how to handle in case of the maintenance charge off balance to the current rates/prevailing rates. off course there will be premium tag attache to everything i Hope the purchasers are well known off.

    Regarding the master plan, I will second Ravi view, you can not close 110 acreas master plan in day one. it will evolves by period.

    it is very nice to have replies with valid posts. thanks a ton


    I am not denying that Hiranandani is a leading company and would in their right mind not indulge in anything that would damage their reputation. What they have achieved in Powai is for everyone to see. I sincerely hope HIRA investors are rewarded well.

    Like they say past performance is not an indicator of future results. Lots have changed for the company since powai happened. The question is can we assume the same magic will be replicated in chennai and be laid back? How many are even aware that Hiranandani Upscale in egattur and Hiranandani Palace Gardens in singamperumal koil is not being built by the same group?

    Hiranandani like any business house have had their problems. There has been many consumer complaints in their projects which can be discarded as one-offs but there has also been a very major scam allegation against them

    The Hindu : States / Other States : Case against builder Hiranandani, senior bureaucrat, others for Rs. 30,000-crore land scam

    HC lifts stay on probe into Rs 30,000cr Powai land scam - Times Of India

    My attempt is just to create awareness and not talk pessimistically about the project.Its better to weigh the risks and then take decisions rather than cry foul later and run pillar to pillar blaming the builder. Our society in general wont come together to ask justice for a single person. If individual owner rights are not protected legally its only matter of time before its abused by someone.could be the builder/association/legal heir/tenant or anybody else like domestic help. Lets say you as owner feel maintainence is high but there are other owners who are well off and are able to meet HIRA's demand. you would have no option but to not use the additional facilities that the township provides despite being a hiranandani owner.

    Their concept of township is very new to Chennai RE market and may not be comprehended completely by new buyers.It would come as a rude shock to buyers if they are not prepared for all the baggage that comes attached with buying into a brand like HIRA. I know many people who have bought in similar communities but have let out their flat for rent because they couldnt afford to stay there themselves. They are taking solace on appreciation of their purchase and handsome rent they are getting.

    We have the fortune of having a well-informed owner of the community,RaviCbe amongst us and it would have been a wasted opportunity if we didnt attempt to get some answers from him when hiranandani are not forthcoming in sharing any information. I appreciate RaviCbe for sharing and attempting to ally each of the concerns raised here. I am sure the discussion we have had here will be of immense use to prospective buyers.
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  • Just to add on- if precedence to be quoted- wouldn't Hira done with their existing township in Mumbai- where land is much more valuable commodity. I think it's more of our(Chennai's) trait to manage risk- not bad one to have, but we do resist changes- unless we get panoramic view. Even MSBs went throw similar cycle when introduced in Chennai.
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  • Hira is integrated township with Residential, Commercial( school,Hospital,SEZ,Hotel etc) buildings and to maintain that forever, they need leverage by way of upper hand to control common amenities. Had they developed full Residential township, full UDS would have been conveyed but had to contain and keep under the control for other amenities . This is known and explained before booking for one to either opt in or out.

    If anyone wants full UDS, Hira is not the destination and have plenty of options in OMR from Residential township and standalone Residential Projects across the stretch

    If anyone wants Residence in the township with Developer maintained common amenities , it is the perfect choice provided ones purse allows and interesting

    We all have seen what happens in 4 ,6,8,12,16 flats buildings in city with Assn issues with Maint,Painting,Parking,Common lights issues....

    As Arunag pointed out, it is a multi phase ,multi year project and even the management does not know where exactly the Hospital, Hotel ,SA,BP comes up since development around the area especially around the area of Hira layout will throw more light even for Management when perfect township is getting shaped out by Apr 2013 with Club house and Store for owners to make a move in besides school.

    For Seagull, they started charging Genset charges heavily since that is going to be back up powered even for ACs unlike phase 1 and 2 for lighting and fan per se.

    Hirco and Hira are different in Chennai altogether and we all are aware of brothers feud.

    Powai is Govt land and got sandwiched with scandal but OMR is owned and clear title deed.

    They will do whatever they want to do only in remaining parts without disturbing the existing phases as Owners and Buyers are much more powerfull than Hira in integrated way
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  • Hira adds a certain glory to the OMR Skyline. Clearly built to last, and being a massive township, i reckon it will stand out from the others in a decade or so from now, a la Powai. With over a 100 acres, and a staggered development plan, this project will be a destination that everyone in the city will look at with awe for several decades to come. Boat club and Poes Garden may be home for uber rich in the city, but I am sure even they would've bought a posh unit in Hira for a pleasant weekend - a break away from mosquitoes and traffic, and a quiet day or two in some excellent and best maintained amenities that will be available in Chennai.

    I wish to thank all the investors, as a Chennaiite, for adding such a beautiful landmark to the city, unmindful of the enormous cost in buying and maintaining this white elephant. Unmindful of the fact that after 20 or 25 years they may not even have a worthwhile asset left in what is presently theirs to carry forward to their next generation. Unmindful even of the fact that the net rental income will be just a fraction of their spending on purchase, furnishing and maintenance for this entire period. And if they have chosen to live there, kingstyle of course, for the entire period, the cost of maintaining this behemoth will be as much as renting a decent apartment unit somewhere nearby in the OMR area. Thank you for giving this city a destination, a dream, a mini model city, to be proud of and aspire for.

    And lastly on behalf of Hira, for handing over to them, slowly over the years, an asset which was originally bought from them, and were even continuously paid for sumptuously towards maintenance. Especially, since they just had a family feud which nearly broke their asset base to half, so thank you chennai for chipping in. The thank you note from Hira is clearly the most valued and heart felt. Afterall they introduced a model that never existed in a conservative city like Chennai, where any other local promoter would be flogged as a cheat, fraud and what not, if he offers 10% UDS, holds back common areas as his own, inspite of court rulings against it, and imposes a maintenance contract for life. So thank you once again Chennai for being most considerate, and helping them promote their brand at your expense. Deep down towards a central district, where the water table happens to be completely depleted, and just around a distillery which throws around a stench for a 10km radii, Hira is acquiring 200 acres to build its next dream city, named Utopia. They very much look forward to you for continued support.
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  • Originally Posted by murugesh
    Deep down towards a central district, where the water table happens to be completely depleted, and just around a distillery which throws around a stench for a 10km radii, Hira is acquiring 200 acres to build its next dream city, named Utopia. They very much look forward to you for continued support.


    Are You talking about Utopia in a sarcastic sense or as a real project?
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  • Maybe he is referring to Hiranandani Urbania in Thaiyur, the Hira marketing person asked me to pay 40% of total cost as booking amount. That's right, 40%!!!

    I asked for floor plan, elevation, site plan, approval details, milestone dates,etc... He said he'll not provide any detail. Of the total 110 acres, Hira had purchased only 80 acres, no DTCP approval, we were just asked to trust the brand "Hiranandani" and wait patiently for 5-7 yrs for delivery.

    Just 30 more acres out of total 110 acres may not seem like a big deal, however based on Wikimapia drawings, I had a strong suspicion that the remaining 30 acres comprised of approach form OMR. I've posted detailed explanation along with drawings and wikimapia links in another forum.

    I'm sure there will be lot of people justifying this and I'm glad chennaiites are becoming "modern". I'm sure this will become the prevalent practice a few years from now. Hiranandani can add one more feather to their cap, being pioneer of new concepts in Chennai. Honest builders can go bankrupt just like Alacrity did few years back.
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