What do you guys think about Jaypee Greens Wishtown - NOIDA? Is this a good time to buy? Is Wishtown a good investment?

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  • Originally Posted by dineshsays
    I have 0 issues about criticism about Jaypee - I am saying take the Gaurs to Jail - I am saying all projects delayed should be up in arms in going to consumer court. I am only saying there is a classification and one should follow it

    What is happening is that predictions about a company is dominating everything else

    Jaypee for example have given 5500 flats - thats more than all other builders in the entire eWay - where is the discussion on those flats?

    Jaypee is the only company to have paid late payment penalty and early payment discount - and all others are increasing super area

    While all builders are delaying - why only highlight Jaypee (I am not saying dont highlight - highlight as you wish - but equally highlight for all other buyers). Poster boys like 3C have delayed MORE than Jaypee - yes MORE than Jaypee, the owners have run away with the money and into other projects - where is the discussion there?

    Fundamentals of delivered properties are far far better than virtually anything in Noida - still no discussion on that - be it quality of construction, density, cost, lift to flat ratio, greenery, views - whatever

    Wishtown is owned by Infratech which has easily 3 times the assets than its debts - it is the only land in Noida where land title is 100% clear and vetted by SC

    However - here we are happy talking about FCCB defaults done by Jaypee Power which has NOTHING to do with wishtown.

    No one compares a debt vs asset breakdown - contingent liabilities are added to the debt without talking about contingent assets - it is told employees are not being paid while that is not even the case - just panic mongering
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    Anyways - I have no issues if most of you feel that it is fine to discuss what you want and where you want - go right ahead

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    See you!!


    dineshsays sir, thank you for giving the greenlight on discussing the builder on this thread and raising some relevant points yourself.

    It is great JP has given 5500 flats, but what about timelessness. And if it has delivered the most flats, it is also by far the biggest defaulter in terms of late delivery.

    Late payment penalty is a cruel joke on buyers. Someone who has bought a 6k flat is getting 60 RS/year as penalty. Anyone would love to borrow at a 1% interest rate.

    Most other builders are also chors to some extent or the other and being "bashed" in respective threads.

    Infratech is owned by JPA. Land banks of Infratech have been seized for default on JPA loans. Land title is no longer clear because mortgages and liens have been created. So that statement is incorrect.

    Jaypee power is also owned by JPA and JPA has given guarantees on its loans. Since JPA also owns Infratech, those defaults do affect Wishtown. By the way, JPA has also separately defaulted on interest payments on FCCBs.

    Contingent liabilities of JP are listed in their own financial statements ( please read the definition to realise that not all potential liabilities qualify to be contingent in accounting sense). Please list what their contingent assets are. We would all be happy to know.

    It is a fact that JP associates owes over 25k crores to sundry creditors ( category that includes employees/contractors/etc) and I have anecdotally heard ( but only from 1 person ) that in at least one case salary was delayed. I don't have definitive information whether this is generally true, but it is plausible it is already happening ( the money to pay L&T, banks, FCCB and employees all comes from the same Bank account and if the first three categories are not being paid, it is quite likely the fourth one isn't either). In any case, even in the unlikely situation that all employee dues are fully current at this time, I don't expect the situation to continue for very long, given severe cash flow pressures.
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  • Nope - I have not given any clearance discuss the company here. I am saying what happens is if you discuss the company here (wrongly obviously) you cloud all discussions on RE.

    If you still cannot ignore me - seperate your RE questions here and ask I will be happy to help.

    On the company if want some info or opinion ask the same in the company thread - I will do my best to answer.

    If you have made up your mind then don't bother.

    However I have only seen one side from you - while you talk about delays - you don't talk about density or lack of it and actual deliveries - you talk about liabilities you don't talk about assets. But let's just stick to your questions on RE here and the company on the other thread.
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  • Originally Posted by dineshsays
    Nope - I have not given any clearance discuss the company here. I am saying what happens is if you discuss the company here (wrongly obviously) you cloud all discussions on RE.

    If you still cannot ignore me - seperate your RE questions here and ask I will be happy to help.

    On the company if want some info or opinion ask the same in the company thread - I will do my best to answer.

    If you have made up your mind then don't bother.

    However I have only seen one side from you - while you talk about delays - you don't talk about density or lack of it and actual deliveries - you talk about liabilities you don't talk about assets. But let's just stick to your questions on RE here and the company on the other thread.

    In terms of RE, I prefer plots but even for flats, I think pre 2006/2007 projects are superior to the others that came after, including JP/ATS etc. JP is not doing charity. It will use evey square inch of FAR, just like any other builder. In terms of loading, it is worse than other builders. Approx 3000 sq ft of super area will get you a 4bhk plus a lounge ( family room) in an ATS project, but only a 3bhk with similar sized rooms in JP. Quality of construction I am not an expert, but I am sure cost of construction for JP would not be more than 1-2k/sqft higher than for comparable builders. The biggest problem with JP RE though, which you seem to be unwilling to discuss on this thread, is that the company is broke and will not be able to complete Wishtown. This will significantly downgrade living experience in the long run.
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  • Originally Posted by pkgandhi
    In terms of RE, I prefer plots but even for flats, I think pre 2006/2007 projects are superior to the others that came after, including JP/ATS etc. JP is not doing charity. It will use evey square inch of FAR, just like any other builder. In terms of loading, it is worse than other builders. Approx 3000 sq ft of super area will get you a 4bhk plus a lounge ( family room) in an ATS project, but only a 3bhk with similar sized rooms in JP. Quality of construction I am not an expert, but I am sure cost of construction for JP would not be more than 1-2k/sqft higher than for comparable builders. The biggest problem with JP RE though, which you seem to be unwilling to discuss on this thread, is that the company is broke and will not be able to complete Wishtown. This will significantly downgrade living experience in the long run.


    So whats your point? Agreed Jaypee condition is bad. It will be worst area to live. Worst loading etc etc. So what next. Where person should buy? Provide your recommendations of exact project you suggest. Also provide options for people who already bought here.

    Let's stop this bashing now (we got your points already). Please provide suggestions without repeating what is already known and repeated 1000times already in thread.
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  • Originally Posted by pkgandhi
    In terms of RE, I prefer plots but even for flats, I think pre 2006/2007 projects are superior to the others that came after, including JP/ATS etc. JP is not doing charity. It will use evey square inch of FAR, just like any other builder. In terms of loading, it is worse than other builders. Approx 3000 sq ft of super area will get you a 4bhk plus a lounge ( family room) in an ATS project, but only a 3bhk with similar sized rooms in JP. Quality of construction I am not an expert, but I am sure cost of construction for JP would not be more than 1-2k/sqft higher than for comparable builders. The biggest problem with JP RE though, which you seem to be unwilling to discuss on this thread, is that the company is broke and will not be able to complete Wishtown. This will significantly downgrade living experience in the long run.

    I will come back but WISHTOWN? It is the safest bet to be completed.

    I think it is worth approximately 6000 Crore that Jaypee will earn in terms of an outright sell & if they can deliver all its closer to 10000 crore

    I would be worried about YEW etc but WT??

    Surely mate you are know firing blind - itna flow mein mat aao.

    I told you do a simple excercise - give a value to saleable land at FAR of 2-2.5 and then do a collection - expenses excercise for pending units.

    Then add Hospital and Nirman Sadan etc valuations
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  • Originally Posted by IPNoida
    So whats your point? Agreed Jaypee condition is bad. It will be worst area to live. Worst loading etc etc. So what next. Where person should buy? Provide your recommendations of exact project you suggest. Also provide options for people who already bought here.

    Let's stop this bashing now (we got your points already). Please provide suggestions without repeating what is already known and repeated 1000times already in thread.


    I am not an agent or desperate to unload my inventory, so I don't want to recommend specific projects. Suggestions would obviously depend on budget, but NA plots, ideally in sectors without high-rise buildings would be best. Old low density societies for those on a budget. I am not invested in either, but likes of ATS Greens Village or Omaxe Forest are good, depending on budget. If you are on a limited budget, go for low density coop housing societies ( plenty of options in main Noida).

    If you have already bought in JP, my suggestion would be to get out if you can and buy from the the options above. Otherwise pray.
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  • Originally Posted by dineshsays
    I will come back but WISHTOWN? It is the safest bet to be completed.

    I think it is worth approximately 6000 Crore that Jaypee will earn in terms of an outright sell & if they can deliver all its closer to 10000 crore

    I would be worried about YEW etc but WT??

    Surely mate you are know firing blind - itna flow mein mat aao.

    I told you do a simple excercise - give a value to saleable land at FAR of 2-2.5 and then do a collection - expenses excercise for pending units.

    Then add Hospital and Nirman Sadan etc valuations


    Wishtown has been delayed since 2007 when JP had no debt problems. It is a fool's errand to speculate on fire sale prices and I will not indulge in it, but cement asset sale is a good pointer. JP couldn't finish Wishtown when they had no cash flow problems. Now, when they can't raise even 30 crores to pay interest on loans and no contractor/supplier will give them credit on payment terms, how will they complete it ? You are forgetting much of the land/buildings are mortgaged and no one will take over a semi-sold, semi-constructed project in this kind of a market.

    Anyway even if I accept your valuation of 10k crore and let us even multiply it by 5 and say 50k crores, JP will probably still have a shortfall when stacked against group liabilities of over 130k, potentially.

    I think it has clearly been demonstrated that JP is not operating on a going concern basis. Otherwise banks wouldn't have forced them to sell cement plants for zero cash and seized nirman sadan and other land banks. Wait for these to be auctioned off. The valuations will surprise you.
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  • I don't think ownership is a cause of concern in WT. Those properties purchased by buyers will remain with buyers and it will have nothing to do with Bank recovery of JP assets. But completion of semi constructed towers, internal infrastructure, maintenance.....all these will be a problem in WT. I don't know how and when JP will be able to deliver on these things.

    By the way, how many towers are under construction and/or pending delivery in WT? Is construction on going?
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  • Originally Posted by Bharatiya
    I don't think ownership is a cause of concern in WT. Those properties purchased by buyers will remain with buyers and it will have nothing to do with Bank recovery of JP assets. But completion of semi constructed towers, internal infrastructure, maintenance.....all these will be a problem in WT. I don't know how and when JP will be able to deliver on these things.

    By the way, how many towers are under construction and/or pending delivery in WT? Is construction on going?

    To start with, banks are not touching buildings partly sold to buyers and it is possible they wont in future either because of the legal hassle, but they do have the right to in case that property was pledged to them. The legal situation is nebulous. You may turn out to be right, but there is no guarantee. Banks do have a fiduciary responsibility to their own shareholders to maximise recovery even if it means going up against existing buyers. It is an unprecedented situation, so who knows what will happen ?
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  • Don't have tower wise status , but can update on project wise... I live close by ...so night status can is visible from my home...

    Status is as follows: Disclaimer, updating on basis of labour and work seen in towers from outside, went inside towers for a few projects...

    Kasa Isles or Kresent homes (not sure which one exactly): Work & Labour can be seen in both day & night

    Kosmos: Labour working in the day, most of the towers have been painted from outside

    Kensington Park Apartments: Very few labour can be seen

    Garden Isles: Work going on at good pace , day & night

    Orchards : Work has started again, passed on to Comet Constructions now

    Kensington Boulevard: Work going at good pace in 3 towers by BL Goyal (both in day & night), labour is there in other 6-7 towers which are managed by Comet, For rest of the 8-9 towers, work is at halt by Ahulwalia contractors, as per Jaypee office, it is expected to start by May

    Kubes: No idea, missed to see it

    Pavilion Court & Heights: Towers Delivered (count of towers wld be available on Jaypee greens website, labour can be seen in rest of the towers

    Kalyspo Court: Labour can be seen plus looks like finishings going in some units

    Imperial: No idea, but looks ready to me from outside

    Villas: Augusta villas ( I believe, the low rise white villas) are almost complete, the red villas which can be seen from Expressway also looks almost complete, no idea on the inside finishing as only owners allowed

    Private plots: About 11-12 plots under construction in KP 1, about 6-7 plots under construction in KP 2 ( I have already shared photos in plots thread..

    Golf Course private plots: 2-3 plots can be seen under construction, 1 massive 500 gaj khoti' structure almost complete

    Boomerang Club: Structure completed, looked good from outside..

    Golf course: Maintained beautifully ( my this update now would be bashed by a basher again that we are restricted to only see how JP is watering Wishtown, I don't care hell about his/her views, I think what matters most is ...Wishtown comes out to be a beautiful liveable area in long run)
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  • WT land is not pledged to any Bank. Any collateral to Bank cannot be sold in open market. The slightest idea that Banks will seize private property in WT is preposterous.

    Only question is from where will JP find money to complete semi constructed towers? Where will JP find money to build internal Infrastructure and maintenance?

    In worst case scenario. Suppose JP goes under and forced to sell management duties of WT. If some 3rd party acquire these assets, they can levy a penalty fee on unregistered buyers for getting NOC from new management for registration of their properties at the authority. Owners of apartments, plots and semi constructed apartments pending possession WILL REMAIN the owners even in worst case scenario.

    Banks cannot do anything to owners of private property in WT. However, Banks can seize any unallotted and unsold inventory of Land and apartments in WT. That's the limit of Banks jurisdiction.
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  • Originally Posted by Bharatiya
    WT land is not pledged to any Bank. Any collateral to Bank cannot be sold in open market. The slightest idea that Banks will seize private property in WT is preposterous.

    Only question is from where will JP find money to complete semi constructed towers? Where will JP find money to build internal Infrastructure and maintenance?

    In worst case scenario. Suppose JP goes under and forced to sell management duties of WT. If some 3rd party acquire these assets, they can levy a penalty fee on unregistered buyers for getting NOC from new management for registration of their properties at the authority. Owners of apartments, plots and semi constructed apartments pending possession WILL REMAIN the owners even in worst case scenario.

    Banks cannot do anything to owners of private property in WT. However, Banks can seize any unallotted and unsold inventory of Land and apartments in WT. That's the limit of Banks jurisdiction.


    Sir please check your facts. Any collateral pledged to banks SHOULD NOT be sold in open market, but this is India and it HAS been. Basically JP borrowed against the land and sold off flats to be constructed on that land without clearing the loans. Don't ask how the banks allowed this to happen, but that is what it is and that is why banks are in a state of panic.
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  • Originally Posted by pkgandhi
    Sir please check your facts. Any collateral pledged to banks SHOULD NOT be sold in open market, but this is India and it HAS been. Basically JP borrowed against the land and sold off flats to be constructed on that land without clearing the loans. Don't ask how the banks allowed this to happen, but that is what it is and that is why banks are in a state of panic.

    This is quite normal, the loans are given as working capital loans with land as a security
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  • Originally Posted by jollygood
    This is quite normal, the loans are given as working capital loans with land as a security

    Well in theory, the working capital loans should have been paid off before/when the flats were sold and were no longer part of inventory, but that never happened.

    And yes, I am sure this situation is not unique to JP, but it is still bad risk management from banks.
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  • What rubbish - banks in state of panic and all. This is standard practice in India - banks underwrite projects - on some collateral. Nothing to do with Jaypee.

    If this pans out - there are two ways - either Jaypee sells peaces of land in WT on peace meal basis and uses part of the proceeds for construction (as most of construction can be self funded by the delta on collections vs spend on the units themselves) or JP sells WT as-is where-is to the likes of Tata/Godrej and/or a PE player.

    The amount of money that a good developer can make out of WT for the location/ concept is staggering despite accounting for delays etc
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