What do you guys think about Jaypee Greens Wishtown - NOIDA? Is this a good time to buy? Is Wishtown a good investment?

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  • Simple thing is,

    I agree that there are serious concern about WT. Mainly on completion of semi constructed projects and Internal Infrastructure and maintenance. There are also concern about Bank's power to seize unsold/unutilized land in WT.

    But Mr Gandhi has gone onto lengths trying to prove that Registered Private property at WT is also at risk due to Bank loans to JP on which JP may not come good. This theory is far fetched and unfounded.

    Mr Gandhi is putting legal jargon which CANNOT refute the simplest of legal terms and common sense.

    Conveyance deed/Lease deed is Registry of property and it has terms of Property. It mentions clearly about all stake holders, buyers, sellers, regulatory authority, usage of property, binding bye laws etc etc etc. Anybody who has seen a Conveyance deed/Lease deed knows that it contains para wise points detailing all these points.

    In order to get this deed registered, buyers has to satisfy all stake holders (buy getting NOCs, paying dues, signing agreements etc with ALL stake holders). After Registry of deed (in other words, execution of deed), the Buyer becomes the sole owner of property as per conditions of the deed.

    No Bank can claim any right over the property after Registry is Done.

    Those Banks who gave loans to JP MUST have come to suitable terms with each other and that is why JP has come to the stage where Possession of Apartments is given and they are Registered with authority. At that point, Banks have absolutely no authority to lay any claim on Private property.
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  • Originally Posted by MANOJa
    We are receiving reports against u and several other members that they are a part of a group who is looking to discredit some Builders or one Builder . We are also receiving complaints against some other members who could be a part of portraying a particular Builder in positive health, despite all the problems of that particular Builder .

    Since, we have several such complaints, we are bound to look for such lobbies and anti-lobbies and if they do exit, we need to abandon them .

    I am not looking to undermine your credibility or the credibility of anybody else . I do often read what u write and i do enjoy it, though as i said earlier, when i put on my common's man hat, most of what u post bounces off my head .

    My motive of my referred post is very simple - If we have lobbies and anti-lobbies meant for purposes which are against the rules, i would make sure that these groups and any posts with any external motivations are taken off the forum .

    So my quoted comment is for anybody who is a part of such lobbies and i hope that they get my point .


    Manoja sir,

    As you know, I have also complained about certain posts, but my complaints have always been about low quality, blatantly commercial posts - none of which were related to the specific builder we are talking about. I have never complained about a post with which I have had an intellectual disagreement or even where I have been insulted or attacked ( and there have been quite a few of those). That is okay , I don't expect other people to be as tolerant of other people's opinions as I am.

    By the grace of god and the blessings of my elders, i am in a position where the performance of my investment assets is mostly of academic interest to me and some of them going to zero will not have much of an impact in my day to day life, but I have still taken pains to ensure that my posts dont inadvertently promote any personal investments I have. So, I hope the people who are complaining about me are not doing so because they think I am promoting my personal interests. I am flattered that people think my posts can move the price of any investment assets, but as far as I know it is not possible to short prices of flats and plots in India and since my posts are all negative, I don't see how I can derive any personal gain from the impact of my posts. I hope people wont say my posts can move JP share prices, but even assuming they could, why would I waste my time here instead of on a stocks forum.

    Have I been partial to one builder in terms of "bashing", as some members described it ? Yes, I have been and the reason for that is quite simple. When I described Unitech as bankrupt, asked what went wrong with 3C, or characterised ATS as only a upper MIG builder, there was no horde of dedicated defenders who attacked me for posting what were my unbiased opinions. But for one specific builder, any unflattering posts I made were immediately attacked and my credibility questioned. Obviously, I will debate more only where I find a challenge or an attempt to distort what I think the facts are. If there had been Unitech bhakts misrepresenting the real position about the builder, I would have spent more time exposing the facts about that builder as well.

    My personal philosophy about dealing with complaints is to focus more on the motives of the complainer than what he is complaining about. That has served me well, but of course I understand everyone has different ways of dealing with the same situation and I respect that.
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  • Originally Posted by pkgandhi
    All I am saying that legality of a conveyance deed can be challenged in court if the challenging party can establish the execution of the deed was mala fide.


    Only one question.

    Do you actually think that Registration of Deeds of WT Properties is false/Malafide ???

    I haven't heard any creditor bank of JP claiming that Registration of JP Properties is malafide in any way. First time i am hearing this from you.
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  • Originally Posted by Bharatiya
    Only one question.

    Do you actually think that Registration of Deeds of WT Properties is false/Malafide ???


    I don't have all the facts and I am not an expert in the fine nuances of property law, but no I don't think so. And I never said it was a likely scenario that courts will rule in favor of banks, but that doesn't mean banks don't have the right to try. The point is that this is a very complicated issue and you are trying to paint it in very simplistic terms. Just because the scenario you are suggesting is most likely doesn't mean any other outcome is impossible.

    Let's say there is only a 5% probability that courts will rule in favor of banks and the potential payoff to banks is 10k crores, to probability weighted it is 500 crores. From a purely monetary perspective, It still makes sense for banks to pay ram jethmalani and kapil sibal 50 crores to try to recover this 10k crores in assets, even if they know they are very likely to fail.
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  • Originally Posted by pkgandhi
    Manoja sir,

    As you know, I have also complained about certain posts, but my complaints have always been about low quality, blatantly commercial posts - none of which were related to the specific builder we are talking about. I have never complained about a post with which I have had an intellectual disagreement or even where I have been insulted or attacked ( and there have been quite a few of those). That is okay , I don't expect other people to be as tolerant of other people's opinions as I am.

    By the grace of god and the blessings of my elders, i am in a position where the performance of my investment assets is mostly of academic interest to me and some of them going to zero will not have much of an impact in my day to day life, but I have still taken pains to ensure that my posts dont inadvertently promote any personal investments I have. So, I hope the people who are complaining about me are not doing so because they think I am promoting my personal interests. I am flattered that people think my posts can move the price of any investment assets, but as far as I know it is not possible to short prices of flats and plots in India and since my posts are all negative, I don't see how I can derive any personal gain from the impact of my posts. I hope people wont say my posts can move JP share prices, but even assuming they could, why would I waste my time here instead of on a stocks forum.

    Have I been partial to one builder in terms of "bashing", as some members described it ? Yes, I have been and the reason for that is quite simple. When I described Unitech as bankrupt, asked what went wrong with 3C, or characterised ATS as only a upper MIG builder, there was no horde of dedicated defenders who attacked me for posting what were my unbiased opinions. But for one specific builder, any unflattering posts I made were immediately attacked and my credibility questioned. Obviously, I will debate more only where I find a challenge or an attempt to distort what I think the facts are. If there had been Unitech bhakts misrepresenting the real position about the builder, I would have spent more time exposing the facts about that builder as well.

    My personal philosophy about dealing with complaints is to focus more on the motives of the complainer than what he is complaining about. That has served me well, but of course I understand everyone has different ways of dealing with the same situation and I respect that.



    Well, you could be lucky enough by grace of God to be in a situation where you can afford some of your investments to go ZERO.

    However, there are people here from all classes (low, middle, elite) who are associated with these forums who don;t have luxuries like you.

    Many of these would have invested their life savings and for some, first of their investments could be the last investment of their life. No-one had would have invested to make their investments ZERO later.

    If you think all non-sense you write (without basis) doesn't impact others, it is un-true, else what is the USE of these forums, everyone is associated to see what;s going on, its so good that for each project there is a separate forum where the investors / buyers can discuss and connect with each other to share progress, getting queries resolved. Some people have been tracking the ground progress in the last few months and updating on respective forums, which may be helpful for people who are not visiting the site, and what are you doing... debt, debt, debt, debt , debt, debt, debt........the condition of Jaypee is all public and everyone is aware of the position from couple of years, we don;t care what happens to JP as long as wishtown gets delivered, all the forums have been made a battleground..

    There is no harm in discussing the situation both on the +ve as well as -ve negative side and I believe the members have doing this... but suddenly from the last 10-15 days, an environment is being created by targeting Wishtown and making an impression that.... sell off all what you have bought here, people would be thrown out of their homes, conveyance deeds which are getting executed right now will be challenged, everyone will come on road, everyone will be running around in Courts to get their homes back, its like end of the world.... totally fishy...there is something going on here...


    Very Clear examples of panic mongering written most of them on assumptions... without any basis or facts:


    - The so called drive to deliver flats is meant to raise money to make the loan repayments, not to complete Wishtown..provide basis ???

    - They only care about getting their loans paid, not if Wishtown is ever completed...provide basis???

    - All sales in WT once lenders take over, as is inevitable, will be directed to raise funds to repay loans, which lenders have a right to accelerate because of cross default clauses...provide basis??

    - In fact, the speculation is that the reason Indian banks moved to seize JP assets so quickly was that they were concerned they would be sold off to pay FFCBs ahead of the repayments owed to them....provide basis ????

    - Whole of wishtown is going to be a ghost town forever

    - All payments that JP recieves from customers have to first paid to the banks who hold lien on the pledged land, before any money becomes available for continuing construction/finishing Wishtown...provide basis??

    - Also, it is quite clear from the visceral response I get on the JP threads that it is has very investor heavy projects where people are looking to get out as soon as they can, rather than hold for the long term.

    - The practice is a concern for JP more than others because JP has defaulted on almost all loans and is on the verge of bankruptcy...

    - If Nirman Sadan is actually sold to ICICI, everyone in ICICI's risk management department should be fired for increasing their exposure to JP rather than decreasing it.

    - I think it has clearly been demonstrated that JP is not operating on a going concern basis

    - The working capital loans should have been paid off before/when the flats were sold and were no longer part of inventory, but that never happened.

    - Banks are in a state of panic....

    - I think in six months it will be apparent to even non-professionals that the company is being run for the benefit of lenders

    - JP is already being managed like a bankrupt company

    - Just because builder was able to convey property on lien to someone else doesn't mean banks lose their right to judicial remedy. Not all banks in India are behemoths like SBI and they can't track every operational activity of the builder. I am not saying JP customers don't have rights as well, but this is a complex legal matter to be decided by the courts, not by some babu in Noida authority.

    - Banks certainly have a case to at least put in front of courts, if not against buyers then against bankruptcy estate or NA which should not have allowed registry on land that was mortgaged.

    - Actually loan sell offs are fairly common, so it is possible HDFC bank has transferred credit risk of kalypso loan to someone else.

    - Secondly, there are loans that JP has taken that are secured not by first charge on specific assets but a general charge on all assets of the firm.

    - I don't want to join the ranks of several members of this forum who have crores stuck in JP properties with little hope of making any returns or even getting their investment back.

    - In any case, I am confident enough to predict that even if JP is current in paying salaries at this time, in 6 months it will not be.
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  • Originally Posted by kp1plotbuy
    Well, you could be lucky enough by grace of God to be in a situation where you can afford some of your investments to go ZERO.

    However, there are people here from all classes (low, middle, elite) who are associated with these forums who don;t have luxuries like you.

    Many of these would have invested their life savings and for some, first of their investments could be the last investment of their life. No-one had would have invested to make their investments ZERO later.

    If you think all non-sense you write (without basis) doesn't impact others, it is un-true, else what is the USE of these forums, everyone is associated to see what;s going on, its so good that for each project there is a separate forum where the investors / buyers can discuss and connect with each other to share progress, getting queries resolved. Some people have been tracking the ground progress in the last few months and updating on respective forums, which may be helpful for people who are not visiting the site, and what are you doing... debt, debt, debt, debt , debt, debt, debt........the condition of Jaypee is all public and everyone is aware of the position from couple of years, we don;t care what happens to JP as long as wishtown gets delivered, all the forums have been made a battleground..

    There is no harm in discussing the situation both on the +ve as well as -ve negative side and I believe the members have doing this... but suddenly from the last 10-15 days, an environment is being created by targeting Wishtown and making an impression that.... sell off all what you have bought here, people would be thrown out of their homes, conveyance deeds which are getting executed right now will be challenged, everyone will come on road, everyone will be running around in Courts to get their homes back, its like end of the world.... totally fishy...there is something going on here...


    Very Clear examples of panic mongering written most of them on assumptions... without any basis or facts:


    - The so called drive to deliver flats is meant to raise money to make the loan repayments, not to complete Wishtown..provide basis ???

    - They only care about getting their loans paid, not if Wishtown is ever completed...provide basis???

    - All sales in WT once lenders take over, as is inevitable, will be directed to raise funds to repay loans, which lenders have a right to accelerate because of cross default clauses...provide basis??

    - In fact, the speculation is that the reason Indian banks moved to seize JP assets so quickly was that they were concerned they would be sold off to pay FFCBs ahead of the repayments owed to them....provide basis ????

    - Whole of wishtown is going to be a ghost town forever

    - All payments that JP recieves from customers have to first paid to the banks who hold lien on the pledged land, before any money becomes available for continuing construction/finishing Wishtown...provide basis??

    - Also, it is quite clear from the visceral response I get on the JP threads that it is has very investor heavy projects where people are looking to get out as soon as they can, rather than hold for the long term.

    - The practice is a concern for JP more than others because JP has defaulted on almost all loans and is on the verge of bankruptcy...

    - If Nirman Sadan is actually sold to ICICI, everyone in ICICI's risk management department should be fired for increasing their exposure to JP rather than decreasing it.

    - I think it has clearly been demonstrated that JP is not operating on a going concern basis

    - The working capital loans should have been paid off before/when the flats were sold and were no longer part of inventory, but that never happened.

    - Banks are in a state of panic....

    - I think in six months it will be apparent to even non-professionals that the company is being run for the benefit of lenders

    - JP is already being managed like a bankrupt company

    - Just because builder was able to convey property on lien to someone else doesn't mean banks lose their right to judicial remedy. Not all banks in India are behemoths like SBI and they can't track every operational activity of the builder. I am not saying JP customers don't have rights as well, but this is a complex legal matter to be decided by the courts, not by some babu in Noida authority.

    - Banks certainly have a case to at least put in front of courts, if not against buyers then against bankruptcy estate or NA which should not have allowed registry on land that was mortgaged.

    - Actually loan sell offs are fairly common, so it is possible HDFC bank has transferred credit risk of kalypso loan to someone else.

    - Secondly, there are loans that JP has taken that are secured not by first charge on specific assets but a general charge on all assets of the firm.

    - I don't want to join the ranks of several members of this forum who have crores stuck in JP properties with little hope of making any returns or even getting their investment back.

    - In any case, I am confident enough to predict that even if JP is current in paying salaries at this time, in 6 months it will not be.


    You forgot to add some FACTS which all came to light just in the last 15 days

    -JP had to sell its non MP cement plants ( under pressure from banks) at valuations of 90$/ tonne against replacement cost of $140/tonne
    - JP Power defaulted on 200 million FCCB for which they had already defaulted in 2015 and already received 1 year extension
    - JP Associates defaulted on a 30 crore interest payment on a 150 million FCCB ( by the way, though I am not sure about this specific bond, most loans and bonds have clauses which give the lender to demand immediate repayment of principal in case of default on interest)
    - ICICI and other banks moved to take over Nirman Sadan and other JP land banks after JP failed after years of trying to sell these on its own.

    The median reader of this forum does not own multiple properties in Wishtown already. My posts are meant for the benefit of those who are evaluating various options to buy their first home, probably mostly financed through loans. They don't all have the time and financial analysis background to understand the financial situation of every single builder.

    Please don't insult the intelligence of other readers and admins/moderators. If my posts are nonsense, as you say, I am sure other members are smart enough to see through them as well.
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  • Originally Posted by pkgandhi
    You forgot to add some FACTS which all came to light just in the last 15 days

    -JP had to sell its non MP cement plants ( under pressure from banks) at valuations of 90$/ tonne against replacement cost of $140/tonne
    - JP Power defaulted on 200 million FCCB for which they had already defaulted in 2015 and already received 1 year extension
    - JP Associates defaulted on a 30 crore interest payment on a 150 million FCCB ( by the way, though I am not sure about this specific bond, most loans and bonds have clauses which give the lender to demand immediate repayment of principal in case of default on interest)
    - ICICI and other banks moved to take over Nirman Sadan and other JP land banks after JP failed after years of trying to sell these on its own.

    The median reader of this forum does not own multiple properties in Wishtown already. My posts are meant for the benefit of those who are evaluating various options to buy their first home, probably mostly financed through loans. They don't all have the time and financial analysis background to understand the financial situation of every single builder.

    Please don't insult the intelligence of other readers and admins/moderators. If my posts are nonsense, as you say, I am sure other members are smart enough to see through them as well.


    People are smart & intelligent enough to differentiate facts (available to pubic) and your assumptions...

    Your intentions have just been exposed & brought to everyone here in my last post.....

    As per my assumption also, your all investments will be become ZERO in next 6 months as you wish them to be in your own post... how would you feel about this assumption...
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  • To All respected members,

    I am one of the most who have invested in Jaypee sports city East. To be very true after all the news coming out against JP, I started calling their toll free numbers and offices numbers. But most of them are dead and I didn't get any response from them.

    Then after some research I came to know that Indian Real Estate forum can give me the insight of the property matters.

    I have booked a flat in Boulevard Court, Sports City East in March 2014. Construction is not started yet. I have paid around 40%. Keeping current financial situation of JP, Can somebody share any information, whether JP will really complete the construction or not?

    Any information or advise is highly appreciated.

    Thanks
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  • Originally Posted by kp1plotbuy
    People are smart & intelligent enough to differentiate facts (available to pubic) and your assumptions...

    Your intentions have just been exposed & brought to everyone here in my last post.....

    As per my assumption also, your all investments will be become ZERO in next 6 months as you wish them to be in your own post... how would you feel about this assumption...

    Sir, you have exposed many things including your poor vocabulary ( I think you mean prediction not assumption), your insecurity and panic ( why else would you dig through all my "nonsense" posts) and your mean-spiritedness ( which decent person would wish for others' investments to go to zero).

    In any case, whatever I have is through the grace of God and the blessings of my elders, with a little contribution from my own hard work and talent. If all my investments go to zero and I still have peace and health in my family, I will still be happy.

    By the way, some of my investments are very close to JP projects and if they go to zero, JP projects will probably take a big hit too. From a very selfish perspective, I would like to see JP Wishtown succeed and appreciate so that image of Noida improves and my investments also go up in value, but I will not mislead people looking to buy their first homes just for my petty financial interests.
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  • Originally Posted by rajpootrohan
    To All respected members,

    I am one of the most who have invested in Jaypee sports city East. To be very true after all the news coming out against JP, I started calling their toll free numbers and offices numbers. But most of them are dead and I didn't get any response from them.

    Then after some research I came to know that Indian Real Estate forum can give me the insight of the property matters.

    I have booked a flat in Boulevard Court, Sports City East in March 2014. Construction is not started yet. I have paid around 40%. Keeping current financial situation of JP, Can somebody share any information, whether JP will really complete the construction or not?

    Any information or advise is highly appreciated.

    Thanks


    Sir, I don't know your personal financial situation and risk appetite, but the financial situation of JP is not good, as you must have realised from news reports. JP has not yet delivered all the projects it launched in 2007/2008, so if the construction of your project has not yet started, you might have to wait for a long time to get delivery.

    Have you tried to visit JP office and asked them what their refund policies are. If you are risk averse and are eligible for a refund, it may be worthwhile to explore that option. You should also try to get together with other buyers of the project and explore your legal options by talking to a lawyer.
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  • Leave my vocabulary, innocent people of these forums as you describe.. are still waiting for basis of your so called predictions/ assumptions...
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  • Members, please note -


    Insults/Flaming

    IREF was put together for people to come together and help each other, collaborate and discuss in a positive way – not bash on someone because you don't like their idea, or because they don't share the same views as you. We are big into the free speech idea here. So you're free to say what you think – but do it in a constructive and positive way. We encourage mature debates – discourage childish arguments. Personal attacks, insults, rudeness, racism, threats, name calling or unnecessarily inflammatory posts will NOT be tolerated. Common courtesy, politeness and respect for fellow members, along with constructive posting of opinions are essential in preventing posts from being edited and/or deleted, or having threads locked. Whilst we encourage healthy disagreement/debate, please maintain respect towards fellow members at all times.
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  • Originally Posted by kp1plotbuy
    Leave my vocabulary, innocent people of these forums as you describe.. are still waiting for basis of your so called predictions/ assumptions...

    I have already explained all my posts. If you can't understand them, that is not my problem. Also this forum allows you the option to ignore my posts. If you think they are nonsense, please just put me on ignore.
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  • Band karo yaar.

    Kuch kaam karte ho aap log or everybody is thinking about start ups.

    Paka maara hai......
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  • Actually I do invest in start ups in my personal capacity and listened to two investor pitches just this week.
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