What do you guys think about Jaypee Greens Wishtown - NOIDA? Is this a good time to buy? Is Wishtown a good investment?

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  • Dear Fellow members - what is the status of PH4 (Pavilion Heights 4) now - when do you think will it get ready for possession. I live in Bangalore and hence very difficult to get a ground assessment - will be grateful for on the ground intel on this project.

    Also brokers have been contacting quoting really depressed prices - e.g. I have a 3 BHK 1675 sq ft 14th floor full golf facing flat - now one guy even quoted 90 lakhs all inclusive - which I thought was ridiculous - dear senior members like Dinesh ji, Venky ji - should I be worried - is there a material slow down - particularly for PH4.

    Would await guidance from senior members.

    Thanks,
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  • Hi there - I saw PH4 from outside the other day. First base coat has been done. You will remember that the last tower of PH4 was quite delayed so overall PH4 got delayed

    It's my view that this will be ready in 8-10 months.

    About rates - listen to brokers for info only - PH4 is the best set of towers (GC facing) amongst PH. I am certain brokers want a good deal to cash out before possession.

    I won't be worried being an owner of PH4.

    If at all it makes a difference I wanted to buy the 4BHK in PH4 but it was sold out in 2010.

    Cheers

    Once possession
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  • Originally Posted by dineshsays
    Hi there - I saw PH4 from outside the other day. First base coat has been done. You will remember that the last tower of PH4 was quite delayed so overall PH4 got delayed

    It's my view that this will be ready in 8-10 months.

    About rates - listen to brokers for info only - PH4 is the best set of towers (GC facing) amongst PH. I am certain brokers want a good deal to cash out before possession.

    I won't be worried being an owner of PH4.

    If at all it makes a difference I wanted to buy the 4BHK in PH4 but it was sold out in 2010.

    Cheers

    Once possession


    Many thanks Dineshji - quite relieved :)
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  • Originally Posted by abhimax
    Dear Fellow members - what is the status of PH4 (Pavilion Heights 4) now - when do you think will it get ready for possession. I live in Bangalore and hence very difficult to get a ground assessment - will be grateful for on the ground intel on this project.

    Also brokers have been contacting quoting really depressed prices - e.g. I have a 3 BHK 1675 sq ft 14th floor full golf facing flat - now one guy even quoted 90 lakhs all inclusive - which I thought was ridiculous - dear senior members like Dinesh ji, Venky ji - should I be worried - is there a material slow down - particularly for PH4.

    Would await guidance from senior members.

    Thanks,

    Abhishek


    Abhishek sir, though you did not clarify whether you thought the price of 90 lakhs was ridiculously high or low, I am guessing from the tone of your post that it was the latter.

    For a 1675 sq feet flat at Jaypee, carpet area is probably somewhere in the 800-1000 sqft range. The cost of construction of this flat is unlikely to be higher than 20 lakhs. Anything above that is premium for location, reputation of builder, amenities, etc. Any number between 7 lakh to 7 crore for the premium could be considered ridiculously low, fair or ridiculously high, based on different circumstances. Given the well-known condition and prospects of Jaypee group, I am just curious why( apart from the fact that you are invested here) you think the price quoted to you is ridiculously low and what you think the fair price should be ?
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  • For the benefit of those members who have been suggesting that getting registry done is some sort of final seal of approval that cannot be challenged:

    Noida: The UP stamp and registration department has said illegal properties are getting registered in Noida and Greater Noida as there is no provision to verify the legality of a property. The department said anyone can get even a footpath or a jail registered, because checking the legality of the property does not fall within its jurisdiction.

    Read more at:

    http://m.timesofindia.com/city/noida/Verifying-property-not-our-job-Dept/articleshow/51486425.cms"]Verifying property not our job: Dept
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  • Does this hold good for other states as well or is it an exception for Noida only? Just a thought, How are the registries been done for states like Delhi,etc... does the registrar babu go and physically see first if the property exist or not ??

    I am not sure if such a mechanism currently exist, but totally agree, property registration must be done only after verification....
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  • Originally Posted by pkgandhi
    For the benefit of those members who have been suggesting that getting registry done is some sort of final seal of approval that cannot be challenged:

    Noida: The UP stamp and registration department has said illegal properties are getting registered in Noida and Greater Noida as there is no provision to verify the legality of a property. The department said anyone can get even a footpath or a jail registered, because checking the legality of the property does not fall within its jurisdiction.

    Read more at:

    http://m.timesofindia.com/city/noida/Verifying-property-not-our-job-Dept/articleshow/51486425.cms"]Verifying property not our job: Dept


    Kindly post the full article. If you read the article is in context of Land/Property where competent authority is not established. Land banks of Yamuna (in UP) are such areas.

    Competent authority of WT is clearly established and its Noida Authority. So there is no question about the validity of such registrations.

    There were similar problems in Delhi with unauthorized colonies and Lal Dora areas. 40% of Delhi Population lives on unauthorized colonies. These colonies came as a result of builder fraud and Land Grabbing. But Govt has taken several things to address these issues. Many unauthorized colonies are Regularized and put under ambit of District administration. So Registry of these properties is now possible and legal route to determine ownership of these properties.

    I don't deny that there is corruption in District administration. Fraud is rampant in areas where there is no competent authority. Builders encroach upon those lands, establish frivolous documents to prove ownership and Register properties which is done in connivance of Authority. Later authority washed off its hands by making lame excuses to separate itself from controversy.

    Bottomline, any property that comes in ambit of competent authority (Like DDA, MCD in Delhi or NA, YEW in UP). Govt is the sole arbitrar of Land records.

    Kindly post the full article. If you read the article is in context of Land/Property where competent authority is not established. Land banks of Yamuna (in UP) are such areas.

    Competent authority of WT is clearly established and its Noida Authority. So there is no question about the validity of such registrations.

    There were similar problems in Delhi with unauthorized colonies and Lal Dora areas. 40% of Delhi Population lives on unauthorized colonies. These colonies came as a result of builder fraud and Land Grabbing. But Govt has taken several things to address these issues. Many unauthorized colonies are Regularized and put under ambit of District administration. So Registry of these properties is now possible and legal route to determine ownership of these properties.

    I don't deny that there is corruption in District administration. Fraud is rampant in areas where there is no competent authority. Builders encroach upon those lands, establish frivolous documents to prove ownership and Register properties which is done in connivance of Authority. Later authority washed off its hands by making lame excuses to separate itself from controversy.

    Bottomline, any property that comes in ambit of competent authority (Like DDA, MCD in Delhi or NA, YEW in UP). Govt is the sole arbitrar of Land records.

    Kindly post the full article. If you read the article is in context of Land/Property where competent authority is not established. Land banks of Yamuna (in UP) are such areas.

    Competent authority of WT is clearly established and its Noida Authority. So there is no question about the validity of such registrations.

    There were similar problems in Delhi with unauthorized colonies and Lal Dora areas. 40% of Delhi Population lives on unauthorized colonies. These colonies came as a result of builder fraud and Land Grabbing. But Govt has taken several things to address these issues. Many unauthorized colonies are Regularized and put under ambit of District administration. So Registry of these properties is now possible and legal route to determine ownership of these properties.

    I don't deny that there is corruption in District administration. Fraud is rampant in areas where there is no competent authority. Builders encroach upon those lands, establish frivolous documents to prove ownership and Register properties which is done in connivance of Authority. Later authority washed off its hands by making lame excuses to separate itself from controversy.

    Bottomline, any property that comes in ambit of competent authority (Like DDA, MCD in Delhi or NA, YEW in UP). Govt is the sole arbitrar of Land records.

    Kindly post the full article. If you read the article is in context of Land/Property where competent authority is not established. Land banks of Yamuna (in UP) are such areas.

    Competent authority of WT is clearly established and its Noida Authority. So there is no question about the validity of such registrations.

    There were similar problems in Delhi with unauthorized colonies and Lal Dora areas. 40% of Delhi Population lives on unauthorized colonies. These colonies came as a result of builder fraud and Land Grabbing. But Govt has taken several things to address these issues. Many unauthorized colonies are Regularized and put under ambit of District administration. So Registry of these properties is now possible and legal route to determine ownership of these properties.

    I don't deny that there is corruption in District administration. Fraud is rampant in areas where there is no competent authority. Builders encroach upon those lands, establish frivolous documents to prove ownership and Register properties which is done in connivance of Authority. Later authority washed off its hands by making lame excuses to separate itself from controversy.

    Bottomline, any property that comes in ambit of competent authority (Like DDA, MCD in Delhi or NA, YEW in UP). Govt is the sole arbitrar of Land records.
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  • Originally Posted by Bharatiya
    Kindly post the full article. If you read the article is in context of Land/Property where competent authority is not established. Land banks of Yamuna (in UP) are such areas.

    Competent authority of WT is clearly established and its Noida Authority. So there is no question about the validity of such registrations.

    There were similar problems in Delhi with unauthorized colonies and Lal Dora areas. 40% of Delhi Population lives on unauthorized colonies. These colonies came as a result of builder fraud and Land Grabbing. But Govt has taken several things to address these issues. Many unauthorized colonies are Regularized and put under ambit of District administration. So Registry of these properties is now possible and legal route to determine ownership of these properties.

    I don't deny that there is corruption in District administration. Fraud is rampant in areas where there is no competent authority. Builders encroach upon those lands, establish frivolous documents to prove ownership and Register properties which is done in connivance of Authority. Later authority washed off its hands by making lame excuses to separate itself from controversy.

    Bottomline, any property that comes in ambit of competent authority (Like DDA, MCD in Delhi or NA, YEW in UP). Govt is the sole arbitrar of Land records.

    Mr Bharatiya,

    I don't understand why you are trying to mislead people. From the article,


    "In the absence of a system that fixes responsibility on the stamp and registration department, or on the agency that owns the land in question, there is no way property frauds can be averted, said additional district magistrate Rajesh Yadav. He told TOI a rule under the Registration Act 1908 prohibits the stamp and registration department from verifying the legality of a property. "Rule 241 of the Registration Act 1908 says registering officers are not supposed to be concerned about the validity of documents," he said."

    For your information, the Registration Act is applicable to all of India except J&K. Are you saying registration of Wishtown properties is being done under some other Act ?
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  • Originally Posted by pkgandhi
    Mr Bharatiya,

    I don't understand why you are trying to mislead people. From the article,


    "In the absence of a system that fixes responsibility on the stamp and registration department, or on the agency that owns the land in question, there is no way property frauds can be averted, said additional district magistrate Rajesh Yadav. He told TOI a rule under the Registration Act 1908 prohibits the stamp and registration department from verifying the legality of a property. "Rule 241 of the Registration Act 1908 says registering officers are not supposed to be concerned about the validity of documents," he said."

    For your information, the Registration Act is applicable to all of India except J&K. Are you saying registration of Wishtown properties is being done under some other Act ?


    You don't know difference between competent authority and District Administration. Competent authority is owner of all land. It sells or lease Land to people (whether individuals or builders). District Administration only keeps Land records and collect revenue through Stamp duty.

    In much of Noida - Competent Authority and Revenue Collector is same. But there are pools of land like Yamuna Plains where there is no sole competent authority and where there are no proper rules of ownership. Hence they are targets of Land grabbing.

    In Delhi. MCD/DDA/NDMC are competent authorities. Revenue collector is entirely different body.
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  • Originally Posted by Bharatiya
    You don't know difference between competent authority and District Administration. Competent authority is owner of all land. It sells or lease Land to people (whether individuals or builders). District Administration only keeps Land records and collect revenue through Stamp duty.

    In much of Noida - Competent Authority and Revenue Collector is same. But there are pools of land like Yamuna Plains where there is no sole competent authority and where there are no proper rules of ownership. Hence they are targets of Land grabbing.

    In Delhi. MCD/DDA/NDMC are competent authorities. Revenue collector is entirely different body.

    Mr Bharatiya,

    I don't want to drag the thread further off-topic, but you are again conflating issues. The basic fact is that registries, anywhere in India, are not sacrosanct legal documents ( they are only a proof that one paid registration fees) and can be challenged in courts.
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  • Context of case is very important. Registry of property has no value if it has no competent authority.

    For a property under competent authority. Registry is ALMOST sacrosanct. I never said that there is no corruption in authorities. But whatever flaws there are, fact remains that Govt is sole arbitrar of land.

    Originally Posted by pkgandhi
    Mr Bharatiya,
    The basic fact is that registries, anywhere in India, are not sacrosanct legal documents ( they are only a proof that one paid registration fees) and can be challenged in courts.


    Registries are done on PROOF of ownership issued by competent authority. Most cases its Letter of Allotment.

    For shady land deals where there are no allotments like of Yamuna Land Banks or certain Lal Dora colonies. Registry doesn't mean anything. Try to understand the context.
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  • Originally Posted by Bharatiya
    Context of case is very important. Registry of property has no value if it has no competent authority.

    For a property under competent authority. Registry is ALMOST sacrosanct. I never said that there is no corruption in authorities. But whatever flaws there are, fact remains that Govt is sole arbitrar of land.



    Registries are done on PROOF of ownership issued by competent authority. Most cases its Letter of Allotment.

    For shady land deals where there are no allotments like of Yamuna Land Banks or certain Lal Dora colonies. Registry doesn't mean anything. Try to understand the context.


    Mr Bharatiya,

    Please read the official text of the relevant rule (241)

    http://registryoffice.up.nic.in/pdf/registration%20rule%20english.pdf

    It clearly states that, irrespective of who owns the land or whether there is any competent authority or not, it is not the job of registering officer to establish whether the land actually belongs to the person claiming it, or if there are third party claimants ( banks holding mortgage in case of Wishtown). It is also clearly stated this is the job of competent courts of law.

    Since you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing and I don't have infinite time, this will be my last post on this subject.
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  • Thanks for the link.

    Its also stated in Section 241 that Registering officer shall make note of any objections raised during Registry regarding Dispute of ownership and fraud of property in question (Points 1 to 7).

    Registry is not sacrosanct if competent authority or any involved party objects to Registry process. No doubt title of such party will be in question mark.

    Now tell me if Noida Authority has taken any notes regarding ownership dispute or fraud in registries of WT properties. If they have, then its a major problem. Has any Bank raised any complaint to Noida authority regarding any dispute (collateralization of land etc)?
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  • Originally Posted by Bharatiya
    Thanks for the link.

    Its also stated in Section 241 that Registering officer shall make note of any objections raised during Registry regarding Dispute of ownership and fraud of property in question (Points 1 to 7).

    Registry is not sacrosanct if competent authority or any involved party objects to Registry process. No doubt title of such party will be in question mark.

    Now tell me if Noida Authority has taken any notes regarding ownership dispute or fraud in registries of WT properties. If they have, then its a major problem. Has any Bank raised any complaint to Noida authority regarding any dispute (collateralization of land etc)?


    Mr Bharatiya,
    I am not aware if Noida Authority has taken any notes or if banks have raised any objections.

    Please note that the rule says the officer is required to make any notes about objections only if they are raised before him during the process. He is not obliged to seek out potential objections. Also, the fact that no objections are raised during the process doesn't mean the right of anyone to do so at a later stage ( at a competent court of law) is precluded. It is quite clear that the residuary powers are with the courts.

    If banks are aware that registries on land that is mortgaged to them are going on, they gain nothing by objecting at this stage, since they always have the option of legal redress at a later stage. In fact, doing so is tactically against their interests, since it will galvanise JP buyers into action and they might stop making payments to JP and try to prevent sale/transfer of other JP assets.

    Bankers ideally want to avoid a bankruptcy scenario, but if it becomes inevitable, they would want its size to be as small as possible. Hence the drive to sell off/transfer all of the monetisable JP assets.
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  • You mean banks are tactically waiting and allowing registrations of all WT properties, but may act later when time comes?

    It makes no sense. Best chance for banks to act is before registration of these properties. After Thousands of families occupy apartments, there is no way banks can seize those properties. Legal battles will be more complicated at that point. I dont see any prospects for banks.

    First banks have to prove that lien of their collateral of builder assets extend to buyers of apartments. Which is difficult enough. Then they have to explain to courts why they didnt act against builders during registration of apartments. On top of this they will have to fight tooth and nail with buyers of apartments who have occupied WT.

    Banks cant simply barge in to seize private properly. Nothing like this ever happened in india.
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