What do you guys think about Jaypee Greens Wishtown - NOIDA? Is this a good time to buy? Is Wishtown a good investment?

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  • Ps - banks have issued NOCs to allottees to register on the very properties they have a mortgage on. Unlikely they make a turnaround later, just saying..
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  • Banks obviously have no interest in seizing properties. Their job is to lend money, not manage properties. It is in their interest to see Wishtown is inhabited, JP recovers and is able to pay off debts without have to go into a bankruptcy situation.

    However, their primary concern obviously is getting their money back, especially since JP has defaulted on most of its debt. In the probable scenario that a bankruptcy becomes necessary and bankers are not able to recover their dues through other means and they have undischarged mortgages on land or flats which have been registered, they do have the right to assert their lien ( whether they will actually do so might be debatable, but their right to do so is not).
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  • For arguments sake feel happy to argue - but having agreed to provide an NOC to thousands of buyers - allowing the ownership of the flats to be transferred to individual buyers - they want to make a u turn in court. "We wanted people to live peacefully before but were waiting for the right time to change our minds, now we want them to vacate". Haha - good luck with that.

    It's not only unprecedented it's incredibly unlikely - possession in India is king.

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    JP bankruptcy - what are you on about?? You think they don't have pending assets to cover 30k Cr of debt and 6-7k Cr of contingent liabilities if it came to that. Do you even have an idea of pending assets and their marketable value???
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  • Originally Posted by dineshsays
    For arguments sake feel happy to argue - but having agreed to provide an NOC to thousands of buyers - allowing the ownership of the flat to be transferred to individual buyers - you want to make a u turn in court. We wanted people to live peacefully before but were waiting for the right time to change our minds. Haha - good luck with that.

    It's not only unprecedented it's incredibly unlikely - possession in India is king.

    ----

    JP bankruptcy - what are you on about?? You think they don't have pending assets to cover 30k Cr of debt and 6-7k Cr of contingent liabilities if it came to that. Do you even have an idea of pending assets and their marketable value???


    Mr dineshsays, please don't mislead people. Firstly, any NOC from a bank only states they have no objection to buyer doing registry. It does not vacate the mortgage right the bank has on the property. If the buyer of a registered flat subsequently defaults on his private mortgage, the bank can still pursue its rights on the property. Secondly, even the NOCs issued would be with regard to private loans that individuals have taken, not loans that JP has taken from its lenders. Based on your argument, those who haven't taken any private mortgages could potentially have their properties taken over, because they didnt need NOCs, whereas those who have taken mortgages couldn't, just because they have a piece of paper saying NOC.

    In any case, I have never said it is the most likely scenario that banks try to seize flats for which possession has been given, but they certainly have that option open to them if all other means if recovering their dues are exhausted.

    If you read Mr Manoj Gaur's interview, he expects to get to 30k crores debt AFTER JP has sold off all the assets for which it can find any buyers. The group already can't meet even interest expenses, forget about principal repayments. After it has sold its best operating assets ( according to Mr Gaur himself),it will have very little cash flows to service any debt.

    By the way, JP group's contingent liabilities are not 6-7k crores, as you claim, but 45k crores ( most of them opaque).
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  • You Mr Gandhi have been misleading people for weeks now - not I

    An NOC was issued to register a flat yes - but what exactly is a registry - it is a legal document transferring ownership ie the bank acknowledges that the rightful new owner of so and so flat is ABCD, we acknowledge it despite having a mortgage on it.

    You think there is any coming back from that.....

    You are dealing in double negatives - say clearly EXACTLY HOW LIKELY this scenario is - on a scale of 1-10. We are in an impressionable online forum - don't drop implausible ideas just to further your bashing.

    I have read the interview more than a few times - I reiterate - list the assets, list their valuation - make it a depressed valuation even and then talk. Everything has a value.

    Incorrect that link you keep posting is totally incorrect - the contingent liabilities are 7k Cr at group level (consolidated) - see link:

    http://hdfcsec.com/Market/Financial-Reports.aspx?CoCode=15293&RptType=B
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  • Originally Posted by dineshsays
    You Mr Gandhi have been misleading people for weeks now - not I

    An NOC was issued to register a flat yes - but what exactly is a registry - it is a legal document transferring ownership ie the bank acknowledges that the rightful new owner of so and so flat is ABCD, we acknowledge it despite having a mortgage on it.

    You think there is any coming back from that.....

    You are dealing in double negatives - say clearly EXACTLY HOW LIKELY this scenario is - on a scale of 1-10. We are in an impressionable online forum - don't drop implausible ideas just to further your bashing.

    I have read the interview more than a few times - I reiterate - list the assets, list their valuation - make it a depressed valuation even and then talk. Everything has a value.

    Incorrect that link you keep posting is totally incorrect - the contingent liabilities are 7k Cr at group level (consolidated) - see link:

    http://hdfcsec.com/Market/Financial-Reports.aspx?CoCode=15293&RptType=B


    Mr dineshsays,

    It is the link that you have posted that is incorrect. According to it, JP's consolidated debt at the end of FY 2015 was 77k crores ( in your excitement of finding understated contingent liabilities you conveniently over looked the overstated on balance sheet debt), whereas in reality it was "only" about 61k crores. Since the money control people got this right, I have more faith in their numbers than the people ( to use a charitable description) at HDFC securities. Consolidating financials, in particular contingent liabilities, is a tedious job and it won't be a surprise if they did not add up all of the liabilities in the 20+ annual reports of all the subsidiaries, if at all they had access to them.

    http://m.moneycontrol.com/stock/jaiprakashassociates/JA02/financials/consolidated-balance-sheet

    You are trying to obfuscate the issue but the simple fact is that registration of a property does not dilute any rights of someone who holds mortgage over it. Just like the rights of the buyer's lenders are not diluted, similarly rights of JP's lenders are not diluted either ( unless JP gets the mortgage vacated by paying off the loan).

    You seem to have a better idea of market value of JP group assets that their CEO, who had been desperately trying to sell them since 2012. If you have read the interview more than a few times as you claim, you must have noticed that he sees the future of the group as being in EPC and cement, with no mention of RE. It is quite clear from his interview that there are no buyers for RE assets at any price on today's date.
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  • I am not obfuscating anything - you are introducing a highly unlikely event in your eagerness to bash. I ask you again - on a scale of 1-10 in probability stakes- in your infinite wisdom - where does the likelihood of this event stand?? And how do you even know banks have not agreed to release their liens in allowing JP to register apartments.

    Whatever the debt situation last year was - current situation this year is 38K Cr at group level - going on 30K Cr - after Bina etc - this is a fact - shortly to be reflected. Sir over 44 thousand crore of debt has been pared off - it is the biggest divestment story of India bar none. Give credit where due.

    I have a fair idea of their assets - ABSOLUTELY, so far whatever valuation I have put - assets have gone at a similar price. Whatever I said a few weeks back regarding debt is what Manoj Gaur said in the interview. I said 35K Cr he said 38K Cr (I was off only in JP Power where I think they have taken some debt to complete Bara or routed some sale proceed of hydropower there)

    Manoj Gaur said that he is comfortable at 30 K Cr he also said he would have liked to sell land over Cement if he could - but has he said at what valuation he was expecting (besides a lot of land HAS been sold off in any case) - but I take a situation where everything must go else you face bankruptcy - in that scenario they have more assets than debt - don't go round and round with rhetoric.

    List the assets and put a valuation - everything has a price at anytime. Then we know. Else - sorry mate - you have no idea what you are talking about and are simply engaging in rhetorical drama.

    Oh and you are free to see their published balance sheet for the contingent liabilities as well. They report consolidated results as well. With line item details. The one on MC is incorrect.

    BTW - all of a sudden some 35k Cr suddenly knocked off from the contingent liabilities and another 35k Cr knocked off from their debt to what you were recently quoting on this forum?? Shock to your system - I am surprised your stance has not changed???
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  • Originally Posted by dineshsays
    I am not obfuscating anything - you are introducing a highly unlikely event in your eagerness to bash. I ask you again - on a scale of 1-10 in probability stakes- in your infinite wisdom - where does the likelihood of this event stand?? And how do you even know banks have not agreed to release their liens in allowing JP to register apartments.

    Whatever the debt situation last year was - current situation this year is 38K Cr at group level - going on 30K Cr - after Bina etc - this is a fact - shortly to be reflected. Sir over 44 thousand crore of debt has been pared off - it is the biggest divestment story of India bar none. Give credit where due.

    I have a fair idea of their assets - ABSOLUTELY, so far whatever valuation I have put - assets have gone at a similar price.

    Manoj Gaur said that he is comfortable at 30 K Cr he also said he would have liked to sell land over Cement if he could - but has he said at what valuation he was expecting (besides a lot of land HAS been sold off in any case) - but I take a situation where everything must go else you face bankruptcy - in that scenario they have more assets than debt - don't go round and round with rhetoric.

    List the assets and put a valuation - everything has a price at anytime. Then we know. Else - sorry mate - you have no idea what you are talking about and are simply engaging in rhetorical drama.

    Oh and you are free to see their published balance sheet for the contingent liabilities as well. They report consolidated results as well. With line item details. The one on MC is incorrect.

    BTW - all of a sudden some 35k Cr suddenly knocked off from the contingent liabilities and another 35k Cr knocked off from their debt to what you were recently quoting on this forum?? Shock to your system - I am surprised your stance has not changed???


    Mr dineshsays, fortunately for you and other JP investors trying to pump up false optimism, my gardening leave is ending, and I will not be able to actively continue my social service on this forum ( though I promise to visit once in a while).

    I am not an astrologer like you ( I saw some of your predictions about Jaypee projects getting delivered in 2013) and cannot predict the future. I can only analyse possible scenarios.

    For your information, probability is not measured on a scale of 1-10, but from 0 to 1.
    Please use some common sense. One can be certain banks will not release liens until the debt has not been paid off ( that is the whole purpose of the lien) and since JP doesn't even have the money to pay scheduled interest, one can be certain that they would not have been able to prepay loans to get the liens released.

    Mr Gaur did not say he was comfortable at 30k crore debt. He said he hoped to get there in a few months in the most optimistic scenario.
    The quality of your earlier predictions and valuations of assets is there for everyone to see ( 17 mpta of non MP cement plants were sold for 11k crores, vs your inflated estimates). Your consolidated contingent liability numbers are wrong and you conveniently forget about the reduction in assets when you talk about reduction in debt. You refuse to believe me, analysts, lenders and even Mr Gaur. Unfortunately, I no longer have the time to indulge and educate you.

    Good luck to everyone on this thread. I will be back in May when JP publishes its balance sheet and reality will be revealed.
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  • Yes I was wrong about apartments being delivered at certain times - I admitted so on this forum. I make no qualms about the fact that I was wrong.

    But you ARE an astrologer aren't you Mr. Gandhi - you predict the demise of the group.

    Thank you for educating me on how to measure probability - but in trying to correct what was written for getting your learned opinion has been conveniently twisted as a mathematical misrepresentation and avoided as a common sense answer which you don't want to state. Since it is abysmally low and you know it.

    But JP has sold assets and repayed loans - how do you know the loan relating to these assets have not been paid off??? Are banks really this dumb that they will allow ownerships to be transferred and give up their mortgage rights especially in this macro environment where all screws are tightened for banks to recover everything.

    My numbers on consolidated contingent liabilities are RIGHT - all you need to do is to study the audited balance sheet published by the group.

    Has Mr. Gaur said he is heading for bankruptcy???? What is there not to believe. He said RE assets were not being sold - obviously if he expects 3000 Crore for Nirman Sadan - how will they be sold?? Do you deny BTW that land assets HAVE BEEN SOLD?? They are a matter of public record.

    You were educating ME?? A self indulgent Internet troll with the sole agenda to satisfy his online ego - pigs flying to Mars are a greater probability than you being here for Social Service Mr Gandhi and you know it.

    Thank for your education and thank you for your indulgance.
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  • Originally Posted by pkgandhi


    You are trying to obfuscate the issue but the simple fact is that registration of a property does not dilute any rights of someone who holds mortgage over it. Just like the rights of the buyer's lenders are not diluted, similarly rights of JP's lenders are not diluted either ( unless JP gets the mortgage vacated by paying off the loan).



    You are adamant in trying prove that buyers of JP properties are risk because JP may not come good on its loans. Lenders of JP do have rights over JP's assets. But these rights are not stretched to the point of end Buyers.

    What you are saying is far fetched theory. It has no practicality. Banks seizing Registered private property of buyers because Builder didn't pay the loan? I have never heard of such thing in India.

    Banks have some kind of ownership over Registered Private properties because they have pending arrears of loans they gave to builder? I have never heard of it.
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  • Originally Posted by dineshsays
    Yes I was wrong about apartments being delivered at certain times - I admitted so on this forum. I make no qualms about the fact that I was wrong.

    But you ARE an astrologer aren't you Mr. Gandhi - you predict the demise of the group.

    Thank you for educating me on how to measure probability - but in trying to correct what was written for getting your learned opinion has been conveniently twisted as a mathematical misrepresentation and avoided as a common sense answer which you don't want to state. Since it is abysmally low and you know it.

    But JP has sold assets and repayed loans - how do you know the loan relating to these assets have not been paid off??? Are banks really this dumb that they will allow ownerships to be transferred and give up their mortgage rights especially in this macro environment where all screws are tightened for banks to recover everything.

    My numbers on consolidated contingent liabilities are RIGHT - all you need to do is to study the audited balance sheet published by the group.

    Has Mr. Gaur said he is heading for bankruptcy???? What is there not to believe. He said RE assets were not being sold - obviously if he expects 3000 Crore for Nirman Sadan - how will they be sold?? Do you deny BTW that land assets HAVE BEEN SOLD?? They are a matter of public record.

    You were educating ME?? A self indulgent Internet troll with the sole agenda to satisfy his online ego - pigs flying to Mars are a greater probability than you being here for Social Service Mr Gandhi and you know it.

    Thank for your education and thank you for your indulgance.


    My final post.

    I never predicted the demise of any group. At this point, JP's continuation as a going concern looks extremely unlikely. However, as someone who believes in God, I do concede that a divine miracle could happen and JP could recover.

    The probability of banks suing in case of a bankruptcy is not abysmally low. In fact it is probably greater than 50%, just because of the low cost of hiring a lawyer and huge potential payoff if they succeed. I have said before that I am not an expert in the fine nuances of bankruptcy law, so I can't say what the probability of them succeeding is, but I doubt it is more than 50%.

    Please reread the para about JP selling assets again. It is non sequitur. JP has not sold or any land banks in the last few months. So, it follows that those liens have not been released or transferred either.

    For your information, contingent liabilities are not part of the balance sheet but listed in the notes to accounts. To calculate consolidated contingent liabilities, you need to read the notes to accounts in the annual report for every single JP subsidiary, which as far as I know, is not information that is available publicly.

    Mr Gaur sold the non -MP cement plants at distressed valuations of under $100/tonne, obviously under pressure from lenders. If there was a buyer for RE assets, the lenders would have forced him to sell those at distressed valuations too. JP initially wasnted 22k crores for cement assets, but eventually settled for 16.5k crores. What they want for Nirman Sadan is immaterial. In case you haven't been following the news, ICICI bank has taken it over and is scouting for any buyer it can find. Bookmark this post. I can guarantee you it will not sell for anything close to 3000 crore.

    Good luck.
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  • Originally Posted by Bharatiya
    You are adamant in trying prove that buyers of JP properties are risk because JP may not come good on its loans. Lenders of JP do have rights over JP's assets. But these rights are not stretched to the point of end Buyers.

    What you are saying is far fetched theory. It has no practicality. Banks seizing Registered private property of buyers because Builder didn't pay the loan? I have never heard of such thing in India.

    Banks have some kind of ownership over Registered Private properties because they have pending arrears of loans they gave to builder? I have never heard of it.

    Mr Bharatiya,
    The lenders' rights extend to land on which they have a mortgage claim, even if flats built on that land are registered to someone else. If the mortgage on the land is vacated, their rights are obviously extinguished as well.
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  • Please read note 36 of the standalone balance sheet and note 37 of the consolidated balance sheet Mr. Gandhi. Again thank you for your education. But I know this much.

    ICICI bank HAS NOT TAKEN IT OVER - please post the link where it says they have taken it over.

    And I know it will not sell for 3000 Crore it's exactly what I am saying.
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  • You stop giving isolated examples - what are the assets, what is their value, what according to you is the probability that banks will recover loans from owners of private property in WT.
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