What do you guys think about Jaypee Greens Wishtown - NOIDA? Is this a good time to buy? Is Wishtown a good investment?

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  • My friend we live in uncertain world where change is the only constant, since we are on real estate portal my question to you was specific to real estate rather than my personal financial planning. I'll let that job to the experts whose services I avail!

    I will like to do a mandatory disclosure that I don't have any stake in Jaypee and nor do I know any body personally on this forum. I've read your posts for last few months and Zohaib and Dinesh for few years - both of them had a PoV on either side of the extreme, lets be fair to them they brought tremendous knowledge to the forum with constructive inputs and deep knowledge , put there neck out and called out there prediction, yes at times there prediction were proven wrong but they are not the first people in the world who missed the trend or underestimated the problem.

    Who will understand better than a scientist who teaches at the best of the institutes, see the corporate world , who thought Kodak, Noki a , Son y ,Black berry etc. will become irrelevant in a span of few years- they just missed a trend and are now history even with all the horse power of brainy people!

    You have been coming every day spending your precious time on this portal with all the love for Jaypee , the message is clear and we don't need to keep on harping the same, they messed up big time no argumentation on that front but so did many others, with an exception of 1-2 builders in Noida none have delivered as per there commitment, some are in bigger mess Vs others.

    My question to you is simple - do you have anything constructive to suggest to a potential buyer in this market? Is there any project that fits your scientific criteria where the risk of odds is lesser than the overall market trend.

    The reason I'm asking is why all the love for Jaypee buyers and not for customers stuck in similar or worst position in other projects - there are people who bought flats and paid in full and where court has put demolition notice.

    I've not seen the same passion in your posts in other groups or is it because of an ego battle because in Jaypee thread you found a bull in the form of Dinesh who still is optimistic on his investment choice and feels that things will be delayed but in longer run will pan out better than what you are predicting. May be in other groups the shoulder and chips are already down!

    Also it will be great if you can do mandatory disclosure on your personal investment if any in Noida under construction market. The passion with which you keep on repeating stuff day in day out on Jaypee, at times make me curious if there is any hidden agenda. Why will somebody with no stake in Jaypee , sitting 7 seas away , scientist by education will waste his time and energy to alert potential buyers of one specific builder!

    Sorry for long post, had a lot of spare time since its a weekend and sleep looks miles away!


    Originally Posted by pkgandhi
    Mr Flatman,

    Unlike Mr dineshsays, I am not in the business of astrology and making predictions about things which are inherently uncertain.

    It is a matter of common sense that any investment where you expect the return from FDs or sovereign bonds will also involve higher returns. I am not familiar with your personal financial circumstances and risk tolerance, which are more important parameters in determining what investments should be appropriate than the expected return, so I obviously cannot give you any investment advice. However, in general, unless one has less than 15% of her networth invested in real estate, I would suggest to her to stay away from that asset class and instead split her portfolio between some combination of low cost stock index funds and sovereign bond funds, with the relative weights being determined by the person's risk tolerance.
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  • Originally Posted by Flatman
    My friend we live in uncertain world where change is the only constant, since we are on real estate portal my question to you was specific to real estate rather than my personal financial planning. I'll let that job to the experts whose services I avail!

    I will like to do a mandatory disclosure that I don't have any stake in Jaypee and nor do I know any body personally on this forum. I've read your posts for last few months and Zohaib and Dinesh for few years - both of them had a PoV on either side of the extreme, lets be fair to them they brought tremendous knowledge to the forum with constructive inputs and deep knowledge , put there neck out and called out there prediction, yes at times there prediction were proven wrong but they are not the first people in the world who missed the trend or underestimated the problem.

    Who will understand better than a scientist who teaches at the best of the institutes, see the corporate world , who thought Kodak, Noki a , Son y ,Black berry etc. will become irrelevant in a span of few years- they just missed a trend and are now history even with all the horse power of brainy people!

    You have been coming every day spending your precious time on this portal with all the love for Jaypee , the message is clear and we don't need to keep on harping the same, they messed up big time no argumentation on that front but so did many others, with an exception of 1-2 builders in Noida none have delivered as per there commitment, some are in bigger mess Vs others.

    My question to you is simple - do you have anything constructive to suggest to a potential buyer in this market? Is there any project that fits your scientific criteria where the risk of odds is lesser than the overall market trend.

    The reason I'm asking is why all the love for Jaypee buyers and not for customers stuck in similar or worst position in other projects - there are people who bought flats and paid in full and where court has put demolition notice.

    I've not seen the same passion in your posts in other groups or is it because of an ego battle because in Jaypee thread you found a bull in the form of Dinesh who still is optimistic on his investment choice and feels that things will be delayed but in longer run will pan out better than what you are predicting. May be in other groups the shoulder and chips are already down!

    Also it will be great if you can do mandatory disclosure on your personal investment if any in Noida under construction market. The passion with which you keep on repeating stuff day in day out on Jaypee, at times make me curious if there is any hidden agenda. Why will somebody with no stake in Jaypee , sitting 7 seas away , scientist by education will waste his time and energy to alert potential buyers of one specific builder!

    Sorry for long post, had a lot of spare time since its a weekend and sleep looks miles away!


    Mr flatman,

    In my opinion, under-construction property in Noida will give worse return on a risk adjusted basis, and perhaps even on an absolute basis, than Fixed deposits, because of massive oversupply and especially after taking into account large transaction costs and commissions paid to brokers, etc. I currently do not own any under-construction property in Noida, though I do own authority plots and had bought an under-construction property from ATS in the past. I expect my real estate investments to produce a worse Sharpe ratio than the rest of my portfolio over the next few years and am waiting for the next real estate bubble to find a bakra to sell to. I recently made an angel investment in a start up and even though there is at least a 90% probability that I will lose even single paisa I invested, I still consider it to be a better investment than Noida real estate from a risk -reward perspective.

    If one is still hell bent on putting money into Noida real estate, then my suggestion would be to buy 1) a good location authority plot 2) a flat in a pre-2009 housing society like arun vihar, jalvayu vihar or kendriya vihar 3) low density builder societies like Omaxe Forest or ATS greens and lastly, if one has still not learnt the lesson and still wants to burn her fingers by buying under-construction property, to at least stick with builders with a track record of delivery like ATS or Purvanchal.
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  • Originally Posted by Flatman
    I agree with your frustration with the system but you didn't answered my question around your personal investment in Noida. Is Jaypee the only builder which has created this mess, what about others ? Its fair to alert the potential buyers of Jaypee projects which I doubt will not be many but what about other projects. Are you showing the same determination in those projects especially where your personal money is involved if any?

    Curious to know because on these social platforms people don't do mandatory disclosures around there own personal interest and hidden agendas. I'm not saying you are the one, but what if you had an investment in Project X which is in a similar mess and want to deflect the attention to Jaypee since its a buzzing thread and influence the perception of the project where your personal money is involved and would like to exit!

    I just wanted to clear my doubts that there is no hidden agenda involved and you have real buyer interest in mind!

    I have an apt in LB and I have declared this in past discussions and is also known to few active members. I am an end user and sure there has been a price erosion but overall I like the location and am in it for long term. I have even explained the rationale that there are still only a few good RTM options available in Noida, that have good social infra and connectivity. All these are upwards of 5000 psf. Even good RTM apts in Indirapuram are 5000+

    I do visit LB thread but there seems to be no activity there, most people having moved to the FB page, so I gravitate towards the most active threads on iref. In fact I started checking on WT as an arbitrage opportunity for my apt in Indirapuram.

    Even on JP, I have said in my posts that it is critical for Noida's image and overall development that WT gets delivered. But it is important to have a balanced prespective. I have cautioned about JP financial position and the onus of providing maintenance and upkeep of the WT as a whole on JP, even before Mr Gandhi came on the scene. But I seemed to be one of the lone voice and dineshsays kept harping on huge land banks but never bothered to address the core issue of delivery and WT maintainence.

    But the situation seems to be turning to the worse with the banks ringfencing their assets and leaving the buyers in a lurch.
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  • Originally Posted by jollygood
    I have an apt in LB and I have declared this in past discussions and is also known to few active members. I am an end user and sure there has been a price erosion but overall I like the location and am in it for long term. I have even explained the rationale that there are still only a few good RTM options available in Noida, that have good social infra and connectivity. All these are upwards of 5000 psf. Even good RTM apts in Indirapuram are 5000+

    I do visit LB thread but there seems to be no activity there, most people having moved to the FB page, so I gravitate towards the most active threads on iref. In fact I started checking on WT as an arbitrage opportunity for my apt in Indirapuram.

    Even on JP, I have said in my posts that it is critical for Noida's image and overall development that WT gets delivered. But it is important to have a balanced prespective. I have cautioned about JP financial position and the onus of providing maintenance and upkeep of the WT as a whole on JP, even before Mr Gandhi came on the scene. But I seemed to be one of the lone voice and dineshsays kept harping on huge land banks but never bothered to address the core issue of delivery and WT maintainence.

    But the situation seems to be turning to the worse with the banks ringfencing their assets and leaving the buyers in a lurch.

    Jollygood sir,

    The market price always tells true story. While people are still quoting artificially inflated prices for JP because of the opaque nature of real estate market, the stock prices of all JP companies are at all time lows. Some active members of this forum were also advocating buying JP shares to people who were already stuck with their crap RE investments. These people now seem to have all disappeared.
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  • In a Nutshell...IN SIMPLE Words

    NEGATIVES:
    ==========
    1. Jaypee is in a BAD Financial Mess, which wont be over soon.

    2. Jaypee is NOT looking at RE as his future business goal...but is shifting his focus on other horizons such as Hospitals, etc
    The Prime land bank is already sold

    3. Jaypee NEVER had the intention to complete his RE projects and was using it to fund his other "Dream" project. This is Proven by the fact that when Jaypee was financially Strong and had Full backing from Goverments...then too..he did not give any positive impact to his RE business..which clearly create a doubt in buyers mind for his Intentions.
    Successful RE developers like ATS always give a Positive feel to their buyers regd their intentions....not only to Make a Project..But also maintain it

    4. Jaypee is a Township which requires 100% commitment from Jaypee for maintenance...Noida authority will NOT change a Bulb even.
    With Time Things WILL Fall apart....and require Proper maintenance.
    The density is high spl. Non GC side....and Thousands of flats UC .....This means the load on infra will be high and Unlike Noida authority sectors..Jaypee wont do it for Free ...
    Considering their past record of siphoning off funds ...one can expect the maintenance money from projects going for construction of theri lagging behind projects


    POSITIVES
    =========

    1. Good Location....BUT...There are many other sectors, projects with similar location and better location

    2. Construction quality is better than majority noida developers.

    3. Many of their projects have less density than majaority in noida


    FACTS
    ======

    1. Jaypee has never matched the demand and resale rates in Noida even when RE was its peak....it proves that market sentiment towards it has always been not so positive.

    2. Demand and Resale of Jaypee remains Poor.
    Buyers are stuck and cannot get out.


    OPINION
    ========

    1. Too much of a risk for a buyer to buy in Jaypee

    2. "Long term" optimistic planners can think about PLOTS Only....NEVER EVER Flats....Donot forget that Flats always lose value and demand with passage of time....After 05 years..even if Jaypee reovers from the mess...the flat would be OLD...and would not have much interest from market....
    There is a Reason why ATS Village sector 93 Doesnt have many buyers...inspite of its resale rates going down
    There is a Reason why Old societies in noida..which are hardly 5-6 years old...inspite of all positives donot rule the market

    Flats are ALWAYS in supply.....and will always be....

    Yes....Plot owners....the day jaypee recovers...you will be far better off.

    3. Many existing buyers with jaypee who are stuck...have no choice but to wait and hope for best...Many buyers would not even support the idea of Public hue and cry and protests which catch the eye of media...as that would have more negative effect on demand and resale...

    4. Market is KING....Never Ever Doubt it....Market decides everything....it encompasses everything.....


    Enjoy
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  • Originally Posted by zohaib2012
    In a Nutshell...IN SIMPLE Words

    NEGATIVES:
    ==========
    1. Jaypee is in a BAD Financial Mess, which wont be over soon.

    2. Jaypee is NOT looking at RE as his future business goal...but is shifting his focus on other horizons such as Hospitals, etc
    The Prime land bank is already sold


    3. Jaypee NEVER had the intention to complete his RE projects and was using it to fund his other "Dream" project. This is Proven by the fact that when Jaypee was financially Strong and had Full backing from Goverments...then too..he did not give any positive impact to his RE business..which clearly create a doubt in buyers mind for his Intentions.
    Successful RE developers like ATS always give a Positive feel to their buyers regd their intentions....not only to Make a Project..But also maintain it

    4. Jaypee is a Township which requires 100% commitment from Jaypee for maintenance...Noida authority will NOT change a Bulb even.
    With Time Things WILL Fall apart....and require Proper maintenance.
    The density is high spl. Non GC side....and Thousands of flats UC .....This means the load on infra will be high and Unlike Noida authority sectors..Jaypee wont do it for Free ...
    Considering their past record of siphoning off funds ...one can expect the maintenance money from projects going for construction of theri lagging behind projects


    POSITIVES
    =========

    1. Good Location....BUT...There are many other sectors, projects with similar location and better location

    2. Construction quality is better than majority noida developers.

    3. Many of their projects have less density than majaority in noida


    FACTS
    ======

    1. Jaypee has never matched the demand and resale rates in Noida even when RE was its peak....it proves that market sentiment towards it has always been not so positive.

    2. Demand and Resale of Jaypee remains Poor.
    Buyers are stuck and cannot get out.


    OPINION
    ========

    1. Too much of a risk for a buyer to buy in Jaypee

    2. "Long term" optimistic planners can think about PLOTS Only....NEVER EVER Flats....Donot forget that Flats always lose value and demand with passage of time....After 05 years..even if Jaypee reovers from the mess...the flat would be OLD...and would not have much interest from market....
    There is a Reason why ATS Village sector 93 Doesnt have many buyers...inspite of its resale rates going down
    There is a Reason why Old societies in noida..which are hardly 5-6 years old...inspite of all positives donot rule the market

    Flats are ALWAYS in supply.....and will always be....

    Yes....Plot owners....the day jaypee recovers...you will be far better off.

    3. Many existing buyers with jaypee who are stuck...have no choice but to wait and hope for best...Many buyers would not even support the idea of Public hue and cry and protests which catch the eye of media...as that would have more negative effect on demand and resale...

    4. Market is KING....Never Ever Doubt it....Market decides everything....it encompasses everything.....


    Enjoy


    It means jaypee intention was to cheat 35,000 families from day 1 with the help of Noida authority and state government.

    All 35,000 families should register case against Jaypee. 300 to 400 peoples are already filing case in NCDRC. They may have to file case again in Supreme court.

    RERA and bankruptcy Bill will also help from next year. Very strong advocate is only hope to get away from this problem.

    Why are we talking about Buy/Sale and demands? we all should stand against cheater.
    Buy/Sale Demand all these talks help fraud builder to divert peoples. Fraud is Fraud. No one should support Fraud.

    Some of the possibilities:

    1. As per the Supreme court order, Noida Authority can acquire all lands, properties, F1 track, Hospitals and home etc from jaypee and complete remaining construction with this money.
    2. Maintenance can also handle by Noida authority.
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  • Originally Posted by kaka12
    It means jaypee intention was to cheat 35,000 families from day 1 with the help of Noida authority and state government.

    All 35,000 families should register case against Jaypee. 300 to 400 peoples are already filing case in NCDRC. They may have to file case again in Supreme court.

    RERA and bankruptcy Bill will also help from next year. Very strong advocate is only hope to get away from this problem.

    Why are we talking about Buy/Sale and demands? we all should stand against cheater.
    Buy/Sale Demand all these talks help fraud builder to divert peoples.

    Some of the possibilities:

    1. As per the Supreme court order, Noida Authority can acquire all lands, properties, F1 track, Hospitals and home etc from jaypee and complete remaining construction with this money.
    2. Maintenance can also handle by Noida authority.




    - The Interntion was simply to use RE to fund his other ventures....I was working for the biggest broker of jaypee during RE boom...and even at that time....it was known to everyone that "BIG DELAYS" are normal with jaypee ......

    - Jaypee has a Huge % of investors....and for them to go to courts is not a great idea...its the end users who feel the pain and eventually go to courts...and in them also many would think that by going against builder in a negative way will go against them....as eventually jaypee still has to maintain everything for them....others may feel..that they will be doing negative marketing for their own property
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  • Originally Posted by zohaib2012
    - The Interntion was simply to use RE to fund his other ventures....I was working for the biggest broker of jaypee during RE boom...and even at that time....it was known to everyone that "BIG DELAYS" are normal with jaypee ......


    Money has been pilfered abroad.
    Mallya atleast has valuable shares in UBL etc which are worth 10,000 crores.

    Mallya is 10x more bothered about his reputation
    What will government have left to sieze from Gaurs?
    The poor bastard didn't even know that 10 percent of the net was 10 percent of nothing - Mario Puzo, The Last Don

    Promters have already taken loan against 80-90% of their shares. How they haven't got a margin call after their shares having fallen 95% in value is amazing.
    Please start using Gaurs instead of Jaypee because that's where the money is.
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  • Post NCDRC judgement...Next step now Gaur's might want to wash their hands off their entire real estate portfolio.
    Wishtown's future looks very bleak. Promoter's don't seem to have any motivation to continue.
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  • How much time you guys have to post same negative stuff? Funny one is "Mallya atleast has valuable shares in UBL etc which are worth 10,000 crores". Sir, you have no idea. Mallya mortgaged his UBL stocks also for loan so it's less than 1200 crore only.

    Jaypee condition is bad as any builder in Noida. Tell me 1 big builder who is doing better. ATS bought land bank in sec 150 have to build cricket stadium now. Let's talk ATS in 2years as they themselves having hard time selling new apartment at decent price. No buyer for under construction apt. Exceptions are 1-2 society small builders as they had nothing else to invest and built apt with decent construction but chori they also did by constructing more and made high density areas e.g. gulshan and exotica.

    It's reality most of builders redirect money to their other ventures. Jaypee had power, roads etc...Amrapali, Wave had movie production, politics etc. Small builders will simply buy more land e.g. earth, patel etc.

    Condition is bad for almost all businesses currently. New central Govt could not do more than UPA except few areas. you are seeing long term investments going bad everywhere or looking bad currently.

    Now, what should we do as end user or small time investor? Wait for economy to get back on track. Investors anyway knows this and should look for 5-7years period. End-users immediately take legal action.

    I would not listen to negative people who just gives negative energy to everyone they meet. You must have avoided your neighbours who are always talking negativity for others so follow same in life including real estate. Look for positives and work towards solution. Investor-wait, end-users go to court, media etc to get apartment asap. But remain positive and stay with positive people. Apartment or small financial stress should not make us follow negativity which will pass to our life also including family.

    So stay positive, look for solution and avoid people who just spread negativity everywhere.

    Bura Sunoge to Bura Karoge
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  • Summary..bury your head in sand and wish things are ok....magnificent solution by very high order humanoid.
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  • Originally Posted by IPNoida


    It's reality most of builders redirect money to their other ventures. Jaypee had power, roads etc...Amrapali, Wave had movie production, politics etc. Small builders will simply buy more land e.g. earth, patel etc.


    What makes you think that the money isn't in Singapore,Dubai,Hong Kong,British Virgin Islands?
    Do you think Gaurs are running a charity with the money they earned?
    They wasted so much money and didn't manage to save any? Is that why half lack crores of loans wasn't enough to finish construction?.


    I would not listen to negative people who just gives negative energy to everyone they meet.

    So stay positive, look for solution and avoid people who just spread negativity everywhere.

    There's a difference between being hope and being positive. If you have a plan then it's easy being positive
    At the moment what's the plan, hope that historical construction rate suddenly reverse?
    You might as well hope that construction costs come down 30-40% because that's what they have gone up by from booking period.

    What will being faitful to the Gaurs earn you? A sudden turnaround against consistent 4-5 year historical trend of slow to missing construction(orchards/kube/)..

    I agree with you, most other builders arent in any way better
    The reason JP threads get so many posts is because of the number of units, people promoting it from inception which creates disagreement with those who think otherwise.

    Also keep in mind none of ther builders got so much in way of loans from formal banking system.
    JP also didn't have to pay for land. No installment scheme for them.
    Builder gets free land and still can't finish construction tells you something..
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  • the reason jaypee threads are so active is because of jaypee agents constantly providing false info...and then other users have to correct them...

    i can easily point out the members here who are obviously being paid by jaypee. one such id was kp1plotbuy or something similar sounding. that guy would reply on every jaypee thread within minutes of a post...he would insult everyone who said anything negative about jaypee. i think he is banned now. good riddance.
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  • Originally Posted by boomer

    JP also didn't have to pay for land.
    .


    So this is kind of people you definitely have to avoid. Spreading negativity with their negative energy and misinformed. Nothing is free in this world.

    Yamuna Exp construction cost - 12500 crore approx
    Actual Construction cost - 3000 crore
    Land compensation cost - 6500 crore + enhanced compensation after court cases

    Exp worth 3000-3500crore. Rest paid with undeveloped land in 5 parcels with value of year 2000 when deal was signed. You know how much land was worth back in 2000.

    So Jaypee spent cash 12k+ crore for exp and got land + exp currently worth 3k crore.

    With estimate for motor traffic on exp mis-calculated by survey agencies so not enough revenue. Only 2 land banks being developed currently. Money redirected for expansion in other areas as India growth was expected to continue to exceed and enough revenue expected from cement, power investment. But..india growth slowed. demand for cement, power slowed which lead to drop in cement prices by half. So Jaypee's business plan went bad.

    Does it matter to us Jaypee's problems? No. Therefore we should make groups and file cases and get our apt and plots developed.

    Just spreading negativity doesnt help. As you can boil your blood but its no solution. Look for solution and avoid negative people.
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  • Originally Posted by ranjaon
    Summary..bury your head in sand and wish things are ok....magnificent solution by very high order humanoid.



    If this was solution then it would have been good with whole reality market. This is what we have been doing by pumping money in market where government dont even have control.

    RERA was made now but we dont expect it to help for another 2years. People will still buy apartment, will still purchase under construction properties. it is burying your head and money in sand and expecting builder will build apartment which will look similar to brochure.

    So be positive and look for solution. Make group, file legal cases.
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