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Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

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Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

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  • Re : Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

    Originally posted by Bharatiya View Post
    You don't know difference between competent authority and District Administration. Competent authority is owner of all land. It sells or lease Land to people (whether individuals or builders). District Administration only keeps Land records and collect revenue through Stamp duty.

    In much of Noida - Competent Authority and Revenue Collector is same. But there are pools of land like Yamuna Plains where there is no sole competent authority and where there are no proper rules of ownership. Hence they are targets of Land grabbing.

    In Delhi. MCD/DDA/NDMC are competent authorities. Revenue collector is entirely different body.
    Mr Bharatiya,

    I don't want to drag the thread further off-topic, but you are again conflating issues. The basic fact is that registries, anywhere in India, are not sacrosanct legal documents ( they are only a proof that one paid registration fees) and can be challenged in courts.

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    • Re : Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

      Context of case is very important. Registry of property has no value if it has no competent authority.

      For a property under competent authority. Registry is ALMOST sacrosanct. I never said that there is no corruption in authorities. But whatever flaws there are, fact remains that Govt is sole arbitrar of land.

      Originally posted by pkgandhi View Post
      Mr Bharatiya,
      The basic fact is that registries, anywhere in India, are not sacrosanct legal documents ( they are only a proof that one paid registration fees) and can be challenged in courts.
      Registries are done on PROOF of ownership issued by competent authority. Most cases its Letter of Allotment.

      For shady land deals where there are no allotments like of Yamuna Land Banks or certain Lal Dora colonies. Registry doesn't mean anything. Try to understand the context.
      Last edited March 22 2016, 04:26 PM.

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      • Re : Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

        Originally posted by Bharatiya View Post
        Context of case is very important. Registry of property has no value if it has no competent authority.

        For a property under competent authority. Registry is ALMOST sacrosanct. I never said that there is no corruption in authorities. But whatever flaws there are, fact remains that Govt is sole arbitrar of land.



        Registries are done on PROOF of ownership issued by competent authority. Most cases its Letter of Allotment.

        For shady land deals where there are no allotments like of Yamuna Land Banks or certain Lal Dora colonies. Registry doesn't mean anything. Try to understand the context.
        Mr Bharatiya,

        Please read the official text of the relevant rule (241)

        http://registryoffice.up.nic.in/pdf/...%20english.pdf

        It clearly states that, irrespective of who owns the land or whether there is any competent authority or not, it is not the job of registering officer to establish whether the land actually belongs to the person claiming it, or if there are third party claimants ( banks holding mortgage in case of Wishtown). It is also clearly stated this is the job of competent courts of law.

        Since you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing and I don't have infinite time, this will be my last post on this subject.

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        • Re : Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

          Thanks for the link.

          Its also stated in Section 241 that Registering officer shall make note of any objections raised during Registry regarding Dispute of ownership and fraud of property in question (Points 1 to 7).

          Registry is not sacrosanct if competent authority or any involved party objects to Registry process. No doubt title of such party will be in question mark.

          Now tell me if Noida Authority has taken any notes regarding ownership dispute or fraud in registries of WT properties. If they have, then its a major problem. Has any Bank raised any complaint to Noida authority regarding any dispute (collateralization of land etc)?

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          • Re : Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

            Originally posted by Bharatiya View Post
            Thanks for the link.

            Its also stated in Section 241 that Registering officer shall make note of any objections raised during Registry regarding Dispute of ownership and fraud of property in question (Points 1 to 7).

            Registry is not sacrosanct if competent authority or any involved party objects to Registry process. No doubt title of such party will be in question mark.

            Now tell me if Noida Authority has taken any notes regarding ownership dispute or fraud in registries of WT properties. If they have, then its a major problem. Has any Bank raised any complaint to Noida authority regarding any dispute (collateralization of land etc)?
            Mr Bharatiya,
            I am not aware if Noida Authority has taken any notes or if banks have raised any objections.

            Please note that the rule says the officer is required to make any notes about objections only if they are raised before him during the process. He is not obliged to seek out potential objections. Also, the fact that no objections are raised during the process doesn't mean the right of anyone to do so at a later stage ( at a competent court of law) is precluded. It is quite clear that the residuary powers are with the courts.

            If banks are aware that registries on land that is mortgaged to them are going on, they gain nothing by objecting at this stage, since they always have the option of legal redress at a later stage. In fact, doing so is tactically against their interests, since it will galvanise JP buyers into action and they might stop making payments to JP and try to prevent sale/transfer of other JP assets.

            Bankers ideally want to avoid a bankruptcy scenario, but if it becomes inevitable, they would want its size to be as small as possible. Hence the drive to sell off/transfer all of the monetisable JP assets.

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            • Re : Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

              You mean banks are tactically waiting and allowing registrations of all WT properties, but may act later when time comes?

              It makes no sense. Best chance for banks to act is before registration of these properties. After Thousands of families occupy apartments, there is no way banks can seize those properties. Legal battles will be more complicated at that point. I dont see any prospects for banks.

              First banks have to prove that lien of their collateral of builder assets extend to buyers of apartments. Which is difficult enough. Then they have to explain to courts why they didnt act against builders during registration of apartments. On top of this they will have to fight tooth and nail with buyers of apartments who have occupied WT.

              Banks cant simply barge in to seize private properly. Nothing like this ever happened in india.

              Comment


              • Re : Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

                Ps - banks have issued NOCs to allottees to register on the very properties they have a mortgage on. Unlikely they make a turnaround later, just saying..

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                • Re : Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

                  Banks obviously have no interest in seizing properties. Their job is to lend money, not manage properties. It is in their interest to see Wishtown is inhabited, JP recovers and is able to pay off debts without have to go into a bankruptcy situation.

                  However, their primary concern obviously is getting their money back, especially since JP has defaulted on most of its debt. In the probable scenario that a bankruptcy becomes necessary and bankers are not able to recover their dues through other means and they have undischarged mortgages on land or flats which have been registered, they do have the right to assert their lien ( whether they will actually do so might be debatable, but their right to do so is not).

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                  • Re : Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

                    For arguments sake feel happy to argue - but having agreed to provide an NOC to thousands of buyers - allowing the ownership of the flats to be transferred to individual buyers - they want to make a u turn in court. "We wanted people to live peacefully before but were waiting for the right time to change our minds, now we want them to vacate". Haha - good luck with that.

                    It's not only unprecedented it's incredibly unlikely - possession in India is king.

                    ----

                    JP bankruptcy - what are you on about?? You think they don't have pending assets to cover 30k Cr of debt and 6-7k Cr of contingent liabilities if it came to that. Do you even have an idea of pending assets and their marketable value???
                    Last edited March 22 2016, 08:42 PM.

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                    • Re : Jaypee Greens Wishtown, Noida

                      Originally posted by dineshsays View Post
                      For arguments sake feel happy to argue - but having agreed to provide an NOC to thousands of buyers - allowing the ownership of the flat to be transferred to individual buyers - you want to make a u turn in court. We wanted people to live peacefully before but were waiting for the right time to change our minds. Haha - good luck with that.

                      It's not only unprecedented it's incredibly unlikely - possession in India is king.

                      ----

                      JP bankruptcy - what are you on about?? You think they don't have pending assets to cover 30k Cr of debt and 6-7k Cr of contingent liabilities if it came to that. Do you even have an idea of pending assets and their marketable value???
                      Mr dineshsays, please don't mislead people. Firstly, any NOC from a bank only states they have no objection to buyer doing registry. It does not vacate the mortgage right the bank has on the property. If the buyer of a registered flat subsequently defaults on his private mortgage, the bank can still pursue its rights on the property. Secondly, even the NOCs issued would be with regard to private loans that individuals have taken, not loans that JP has taken from its lenders. Based on your argument, those who haven't taken any private mortgages could potentially have their properties taken over, because they didnt need NOCs, whereas those who have taken mortgages couldn't, just because they have a piece of paper saying NOC.

                      In any case, I have never said it is the most likely scenario that banks try to seize flats for which possession has been given, but they certainly have that option open to them if all other means if recovering their dues are exhausted.

                      If you read Mr Manoj Gaur's interview, he expects to get to 30k crores debt AFTER JP has sold off all the assets for which it can find any buyers. The group already can't meet even interest expenses, forget about principal repayments. After it has sold its best operating assets ( according to Mr Gaur himself),it will have very little cash flows to service any debt.

                      By the way, JP group's contingent liabilities are not 6-7k crores, as you claim, but 45k crores ( most of them opaque).

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