Hereby I will prove how the realty boomers arguments are false.

What are the boomers arguments?

1.) Buy today, houses always increase in value in the long run.
WRONG. House prices cannot increase more than incomes in the long run. This is obvious if you think about it. If house prices go up more than people can afford to pay, buying stops, like it has stopped now.
Even Warren Buffett have pointed out that houses don't increase in intrinsic value. Unless there's a bubble or a crash, house prices simply reflect current salaries and interest rates. If a house is 100 years old, it's value in sheltering you is exactly the same as it was 100 years ago. Then came the maintenance as the house didn't renovate itself. It also has taxes, and insurance - costs that always increase and never go away. The price of the house went up about as much as salaries went up.
To put this is simple perspective, vegetable were costing Rs.5-6/kg when 5 digit salary was a rarity.
Today, the prices have gone up by about 4 times but so have the salaries. So, sounds very much like the reasoning people use now when they talk about how much their father's house appreciated "in the long run" without considering that salaries rose a proportional amount.

2.) Renting is just wastage of money.
WRONG. As said before renting is now much cheaper per month than owning. If you don't rent, you either:

* Have a mortgage, in which case you are throwing away money on interest, tax, insurance, maintenance, costs that increase forever.
* Own outright, in which case you are throwing away the extra income you could get by converting your house to cash, investing in bonds, and renting a similar place to live for much less money. This extra income is sufficient for emergency expenses,retirement etc.

Either way, owners lose much more money every month than renters and that's assuming prices don't correct to very high level & everything is smooth in the economy.

3.) As a renter, you won't have any money left as you will spend them on vacations,cars & hence won't have equity/savings etc.
WRONG. Equity is just money. Renters are actually in a better position to build equity/savings through investing in anything but housing. Renters can get rich much faster than owners, just by investing in conservative stocks & bonds.

* Owners are losing every month by paying much more for interest than they would pay for rent. The tax deduction does not come close to making owing competitive with renting.
* Owners must pay taxes simply to own a house. That is not true of stocks, bonds, or any other asset that can build equity/savings. Only houses are such a guaranteed drain on cash.
* Owners must insure a house, but not most other investments.
* Owners must pay to repair a house, but not a stock or a bond.
* Owners lose their money as house prices reduce. The EMI's remain constant in spite of reduction in rates. At the end of loan tenure, they would have paid almost twice than that of current renters who will buy at logical rates. Keep interest rates in mind. Most of the EMI is not principal amount but interest.

4.) There are great tax advantages to owning a house.
WRONG. Many people believe you can just reduce your income tax by the amount you pay in interest, but they are wrong. Buyers may not deduct interest from income tax; they deduct interest from taxable income. And even then, the tax advantage is not significant compared to the large monthly loss from owning.

If you don't own a house but want to live in one, your choice is to rent a house or rent money to buy a house. To rent money is to take out a loan. A mortgage is a money-rental agreement. House renters take no risk at all, but money-renting owners take on the huge risk of falling house prices, as well as all the costs of repairs, insurance, property taxes, etc.

5.) RE is based on local factors, it's not a national phenomenon. RE of Delhi-NCR,Bangalore & rest of the cities has nothing to do with Pune RE.
WRONG. Lending rates remain the same throughout the country. ALL loans are harder to get. This will drive prices down everywhere.

6.) A rental house provides good income. So, you can rent if you have purchased as investment.
WRONG. Rental houses provide very poor income in hyped areas and certainly cannot cover mortgage payments. Remember there is almost 300% difference between EMIs & rent for the same house.

It's pointless to do the work of being a landlord if you can make more money with no risk, no work, and no state income tax by investing in assured good returns bond.

7.) If owning is a loss in monthly cash flow, but appreciation will make up for it.
WRONG. Appreciation is negative. Prices are going down. It only adds to the injury of already high EMI's.

8.) As soon as prices drop a little, the number of buyers on the sidelines willing to jump back in increases.
WRONG. There are very few buyers left, and those who do want to buy will be limited by increasing difficulty of borrowing now that many house owners are near bankrupt as they don't save anything at the end of the month due to high EMI's.
No one has to buy, but there will be more and more people who have no choice but to sell as their payments rise. That will keep driving prices downward for a long time.

9.) House prices never fall atleast in Pune.
WRONG. If you see the RE scenario of 1996, prices crashed by 50% & took a whole 7+ years to recover.
Exact 1996 scenario may not be there today but strong correction is inevitable across the city.

10.) House prices don't fall to zero like stock prices, so it's safer to invest in real estate.
WRONG. House prices won't be zero, but the equity or the principal amount you paid can be zero or even negative. What you will pay as EMIs later in actual terms is not for the principal amount but only the interest as house prices dip. So, you will be only serving the bank.

11.) Prices will soften gradually, won't crash immediately.
WRONG. Prices are falling off a cliff. No one knows exactly what will happen, but it looks like prices will continue to fall for long time. These are just more manipulation of buyer emotions, to get them to buy even while prices are falling.

12.) The bubble prices were driven by supply and demand alone.
WRONG. Prices were driven by low interest rates and risky loans & good returns for investors in initial phases of boom in 2004-05.
Prices went up, interest rates went up & buyers savings went down. So prices are violating the most basic assumptions about supply and demand.

13.) There is lack of land.
WRONG. Ample of land is available & continue to be even in future in Pune. Sales volume are down. Even in Japan (small country with less land), prices went down. Current prices here are the same as that of 23 years ago. If we really had a housing shortage, there would not be so many vacant rentals.

14.) If you don't own, you'll live in a cheap neighborhood later.
WRONG. For the any given monthly payment, you can rent a much better house than you can buy. Renters live better, not worse. There are downsides to renting, such as being told to move at the end of your lease, or having your rent raised, but since there are thousands of vacant rentals, you can take your pick and be quite happy renting during the crash. There are similar but worse problems for owners anyway, such as being fired and losing your house, or having your interest rate and property taxes adjust upward. Remember, property taxes are forever.

15.) There's always someone predicting a real estate crash.
TRUE, yet irrelevant. There are very real crashes every decade or so. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

16.) Local incomes justify the high prices.
WRONG. The mortgage should be more than your 3 years earning. It is much higher today. Most are already in danger/red zone.

17.) You have to live somewhere.
CORRECT. But that doesn't mean you should waste your life savings on a bad investment. You can live in a better house for much less money by renting during the down slide in RE.

18.) It's not a house, it's a home.
WRONG. Wherever one lives in it is home, be it apartment, condo, bungalow , mansion or house. Calling a house a "home" is a manipulation of your emotions for profit.

19.) If you don't buy now, you'll never get another chance.
WRONG. History proves otherwise.
Here's a beautiful quote from a analyst:-
"The real issue isn't whether you will be stuck being a renter all your life, she says. Its whether you'll get so scared about being shut out that you'll buy at the market's peak and be stuck in a property you can't afford or sell."

20.) It would take major economic recession or a major earthquake that wipes out this area in order for the price to fall by over 50%.
WRONG. Even today, if the prices fall by 50%, there will still be very few people who can buy at this levels due to uncertainty in jobs & most importantly high EMIs. Also, look at the rental rates for equivalent houses. Which loss per month is larger? EMI or rent?

contd....
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  • Originally Posted by Venkytalks


    Do not under-estimate the productivity of white people - or over-estimate Indian productivity. We have a long way to go yet.


    This is exactly what I was saying in my post 2 days earlier on stock advice :)


    If so, expect 10-12% inflation (for consumers) and 10-15% bank deposit rates and a return to the 1980s economy. This is not hyper-inflation - which destroys currencies - but high inflation - which destroys middle class. If this is the scenario which pans out - you need to own RE - at least own house. Other wise inflation will destroy you.


    Good analysis, Venky. But the whole point of this thread is not whether to own a house, but when is the most opportune time to take the decision. Should we, the hard-way-earning middle-class submit to callous tactics and blackmail by builders & investors or should we wait for a sizeable correction that seems more & more inevitable everyday with the worsening eco & geo-political backdrop ? I guess each one has to answer this very difficult dilemma for himself :bab (38): or should we wait for a sizeable correction that seems more & more inevitable everyday with the worsening eco & geo-political backdrop ? I guess each one has to answer this very difficult dilemma for himself :bab (38): or should we wait for a sizeable correction that seems more & more inevitable everyday with the worsening eco & geo-political backdrop ? I guess each one has to answer this very difficult dilemma for himself :bab (38):
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  • Aptly said Sanjana!!
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  • Originally Posted by wiseman
    Please check out this link for the real meaning of oversupply.

    There are more homes than population!:o

    To make it worse, there is very poor economic outlook in the foreseeable future for many of these places.

    The link ...

    american-ghost-towns-21st-century-247wallst: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

    cheers


    Not to minimize the issue of oversupply...I think it is a bit exaggerated here. Note the population sizes of these towns..I have driven past a couple of these before the downturn and they were like that..it is urban migration. I am sure we have a few 'budruks' or 'khurds' that have similar issue.

    Also the general outlook that I have observed is the hit continues to be in the bubble areas: NV, AZ, FL, MI and parts of CA. In the upper-midwest, our houses are moving at an average of 2-4 weeks if the price is reasonable (none are selling at fire-sale).

    Again, there is oversupply from the late-cycle speculators of the go-go times; but it is not the end-of-the-world status. Also note that people tend to own more than one places and that should be accounted as well.

    cheers
    -bb2
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  • True ...

    Originally Posted by billybob2
    Not to minimize the issue of oversupply...I think it is a bit exaggerated here. Note the population sizes of these towns..I have driven past a couple of these before the downturn and they were like that..it is urban migration. I am sure we have a few 'budruks' or 'khurds' that have similar issue.

    Also the general outlook that I have observed is the hit continues to be in the bubble areas: NV, AZ, FL, MI and parts of CA. In the upper-midwest, our houses are moving at an average of 2-4 weeks if the price is reasonable (none are selling at fire-sale).

    Again, there is oversupply from the late-cycle speculators of the go-go times; but it is not the end-of-the-world status. Also note that people tend to own more than one places and that should be accounted as well.

    cheers
    -bb2



    Billybob,

    You have not posted on this forum for a very long time (if I remember right).

    You are correct. I was not saying it is end of the world. Also, as you said, many are investment homes. And many of these are also tourist destinations.

    Besides, these do not constitute all of America!

    Nevertheless, they are having an oversupply of too many dwellings given the population and prospects.

    cheers
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  • Middle East Crisis, American political and economic crisis, billion INR indian corruption crisis and still our market is up. NIFTY is close to 6K now.

    Things do not add up ?
    Originally Posted by SanjanaSingh
    Originally Posted by Venkytalks


    or should we wait for a sizeable correction that seems more & more inevitable everyday with the worsening eco & geo-political backdrop ? I guess each one has to answer this very difficult dilemma for himself :bab (38):
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  • Originally Posted by Manoos
    Middle East Crisis, American political and economic crisis, billion INR indian corruption crisis and still our market is up. NIFTY is close to 6K now.

    Things do not add up ?


    I guess its because interest rate is not high enough to offset loss in value of money from oversupply in world market... so money is moving to different asset classes; stocks being one of them and in fact causing what is called asset inflation...

    experts, am i way off?Middle East Crisis, American political and economic crisis, billion INR indian corruption crisis and still our market is up. NIFTY is close to 6K now.

    Things do not add up ?


    I guess its because interest rate is not high enough to offset loss in value of money from oversupply in world market... so money is moving to different asset classes; stocks being one of them and in fact causing what is called asset inflation...

    experts, am i way off?
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  • Residential property prices to dip

    Weighed down by a piling up inventory as customers stay away, property prices in India's key markets are slated to decline, while in other cities the trend is likely to be divergent

    The Reserve Bank of India is widely expected to raise interest rates again by 25 baisis points on May 3 when it releases monetary policy statement for 2011/12.

    Residential property prices to dip as buyers stay away
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  • Sales slowdown, debt concerns to rein in real estate

    The outlook would continue to remain negative till the first quarter of 2012 as offtake continues to be slow, putting pressure on developers’ bottom line,” said Surajit Pal, analyst, Elara Capital Ltd. “Liquidity would continue to be the challenge for the sector.”

    Sales slowdown, debt concerns to rein in real estate earnings - Home - livemint.com
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  • Fundamentals & Valuation

    In addition to fundamental analysis one should be very cautious on valuation. Let’s see the impact of overvalued asset.
    Consider a Reliance Power(RPOWER) stock.
    Fundamentals


      India has huge demand for power.
      In next 20 years, the demand will surpass …. quantity & there will be acute shortage of power.
      Reliance group have excellent history & track record.
      RPower will become the 1st private company foraying into nuclear power generation.
      Blah .. blah……..

      Valuation
      Feb -2008 -> 373 Rs
      Hurry up, hurry ……..
      Mar-2008->442 Rs

      People who missed IPO now jumped in the wagon.
      May-2008(bonus 2:1)->220 Rs

      Valuation found expensive so company allotted bonus share.
      Oct-2008->90 Rs

      Global economy tanked.
      Apr-2011->130 Rs

      Fundamentals are still intact but stock is depressed.

      Person 1 – took the position in Jan 2011.
      Person 2- took the position in May 2008.

      Person1 will always remain in profit where as person2 will keep having heartburn. Same asset, same fundamentals only timing & price different.


      Valuation is utmost important in asset buying.:D

      NOTE: Buying at correct valuation do not called bottom fishing or timing out the market.
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  • Originally Posted by Venkytalks

    Actually you are wrong.


    This is called the confirmation bias. Without looking at the data or doing a survey, talking based on few cases is …….............. If one is really interested they can buy the raw data from market research agencies OR do own survey. Based on the data you are free to draw inferences.


    Btw, on my personal visit, I have seen deep discounted deals in Baner/Balewadi in 4th Q-2008 & 2nd Q of 2009 that in ready to move projects.
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  • Originally Posted by wiseman
    Stoxxx,

    Since you have never been a bear, you do not have a true perspective of the basic characteristics of a bear.


    With respect how do you know I have never been a bear?

    Originally Posted by wiseman
    Markets climb in the form of going up a staircase and take longer to top out than most people expect. When they come down, they come down as though jumping out of the window (without parachute).

    Therefore a good bear has to have a lot of patience waiting and watching for all the false signals to end. When the final top signal comes up, he must decisively enter putting a lot of money into shorting the market when it looks most risky for him.

    Being patient as well as decisive, he cannot afford to be angry, frustrated, etc, etc :)


    As they say a market rally is not usually over until the last bear throws in the towel.

    You are actually giving away the correct answer in your comment. A 'good' bear needs to have lot of patience. I find it missing with bears on this thread. In fact the very fact that this thread was opened at a time which was best time to buy indicates how 'good' the bears are.

    Calling final top signal ...hmmm.....i.e. timing the market. Hindsight is 20:20. In fact Marc Faber (a.k.a. Dr Doom) has recently stated that calling a market top is extremely difficult than calling a market bottom.

    There are a number of contra players who got burned shorting Indian market prematurely.

    and how would you short RE in India. Do the so called bears here even know how to short RE decisively.

    Most of these seem to be people who missed the bus and are eager to get on the next available.


    Originally Posted by wiseman


    In fact, its the bulls who often get angry and frustrated.

    They always have it much easier when markets go up. So they see their money increasing in value for a long period of time and they get sucked in putting more and more of their money. After some time they get so used to making easy money that they start thinking its their birthright to make money in the market.

    When the top comes and crash ensues, they first suffer surprise, then shock and then anger and frustration that their "birthright" accumulated over several years is being snatched away from them suddenly and so quickly they are frozen with fear and cannot act quickly enough to save their assets falling 50% to even 95% of value (recall RE shares falling by 90 - 95% in 2008).
    cheers


    In fact, as it is widely accepted people feel more miserable on missing rallies and bull market than loosing in bear market. In bear market most people lose so the pain felt is limited in a relative sense. However, bears who are constantly bearish - miss opportunities and are in danger of mistiming the market.
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  • I have found the ultimate answer to bull Vs bear ...

    Originally Posted by stoxxx
    With respect how do you know I have never been a bear?



    As they say a market rally is not usually over until the last bear throws in the towel.

    You are actually giving away the correct answer in your comment. A 'good' bear needs to have lot of patience. I find it missing with bears on this thread. In fact the very fact that this thread was opened at a time which was best time to buy indicates how 'good' the bears are.

    Calling final top signal ...hmmm.....i.e. timing the market. Hindsight is 20:20. In fact Marc Faber (a.k.a. Dr Doom) has recently stated that calling a market top is extremely difficult than calling a market bottom.

    There are a number of contra players who got burned shorting Indian market prematurely.

    and how would you short RE in India. Do the so called bears here even know how to short RE decisively.

    Most of these seem to be people who missed the bus and are eager to get on the next available.




    In fact, as it is widely accepted people feel more miserable on missing rallies and bull market than loosing in bear market. In bear market most people lose so the pain felt is limited in a relative sense. However, bears who are constantly bearish - miss opportunities and are in danger of mistiming the market.


    As you have stated (and I too faced these situations many times), for every argument for the bull, there is a counter-argument for the bear and vice versa. So I went back to the drawing board all confused and - Bingo! - in one of those undefinable moments of clear insight, I got the answer ...

    Be a Bull as well as a Bear all the time.

    So I split my fund into 2 parts. One acts as though I am a bear. The other as though I am a bull. And both make money hand-over-fist one after the other (just check out the custom chart below and tell me if both bull as well as bear cannot make money simultaneously!).

    To make things even more interesting, it also not only protects me during major directional moves, it is in these very moves that the maximum money is made!!!:D

    Finally, Stock Market Speculative Nirvana!!!

    No need to argue needlessly anymore. Just make money.

    All the rest (trying to pick bottoms, tops, turns, etc) are just to have fun meanwhile and test my abilities as also to try to better my All-Bear-All-Bull Strategy (pun intended)! :D

    cheers
    Attachments:
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  • 2G scam: Pawar may be controlling DB Realty, says Radia - The Times of India

    So will the Pawar empire get a setback or is he too strong and will survice this also..
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  • Originally Posted by SanjanaSingh
    Originally Posted by Venkytalks



    This is exactly what I was saying in my post 2 days earlier on stock advice :)



    Good analysis, Venky. But the whole point of this thread is not whether to own a house, but when is the most opportune time to take the decision. Should we, the hard-way-earning middle-class submit to callous tactics and blackmail by builders & investors or should we wait for a sizeable correction that seems more & more inevitable everyday with the worsening eco & geo-political backdrop ? I guess each one has to answer this very difficult dilemma for himself :bab (38):


    Re: Jobs in India, ET yesterday had an interesting article on reverse brain drain, which I had talked about in my predictions.

    If people are going to have 5L per month salary, then white guys are going to compete for such jobs. They will be ready to work for anything over 3L per month.

    Suddenly, Indian managers are going to find that there is a limit beyond which they cannot earn - they will attract foreign competition. I think limit is probably 5L per month = 60L per annum. Which means that for prices over 3-4 Crore for a flat, suddenly there will be a big dead end soon - because these well paying jobs will be taken away by foreign competition.

    Without a salary of this amount, 4 crore flats are not really affordable unless you hock your life to the flat


    When?

    I say WHEN you can put down 50% (or 60% would be better)

    WHEN EMI is 25% of your take home after tax salary

    WHEN quality of life within the condo seems worth it (which means DDA or Dwarka flat is out, newer GGN style condos are worth it)

    WHEN you have job security

    WHEN you are over 33-40 years old (depending on career) and married with complete family

    WHEN you can do proper retirement planning


    Khbaribal, fact remains that you hunted for the bargain at the right time - and you found it.

    In Delhi they did not exit. I also hunted for a firesale price for ready built, but did not find it, except for Omaxe Grandwoods in 2009 May. I considered Omaxe high risk (they still havent delivered even though structure was finished in May 2009) and stayed away.

    There was no such firesale in Sohna road Gurgaon, where there were ready to move flats. Builder had no bookings left to sell and owners were not selling at such low prices.

    Finally I booked in a couple of projects - it was a good time for booking as well, I got very low prices. I am happy.

    Fact remains - bargains were few and far between for quite a few who hunted at the right time, even after recognising that time was right. Within 6 months, prices were back up.

    I am not a research analyst and do not care to back up my statements with data - if you disagree, feel free to do so. I base all my posts only on my own gut instinct - take it or leave it.

    I say WHEN you can put down 50% (or 60% would be better)

    WHEN EMI is 25% of your take home after tax salary

    WHEN quality of life within the condo seems worth it (which means DDA or Dwarka flat is out, newer GGN style condos are worth it)

    WHEN you have job security

    WHEN you are over 33-40 years old (depending on career) and married with complete family

    WHEN you can do proper retirement planning


    Khbaribal, fact remains that you hunted for the bargain at the right time - and you found it.

    In Delhi they did not exit. I also hunted for a firesale price for ready built, but did not find it, except for Omaxe Grandwoods in 2009 May. I considered Omaxe high risk (they still havent delivered even though structure was finished in May 2009) and stayed away.

    There was no such firesale in Sohna road Gurgaon, where there were ready to move flats. Builder had no bookings left to sell and owners were not selling at such low prices.

    Finally I booked in a couple of projects - it was a good time for booking as well, I got very low prices. I am happy.

    Fact remains - bargains were few and far between for quite a few who hunted at the right time, even after recognising that time was right. Within 6 months, prices were back up.

    I am not a research analyst and do not care to back up my statements with data - if you disagree, feel free to do so. I base all my posts only on my own gut instinct - take it or leave it.

    I say WHEN you can put down 50% (or 60% would be better)

    WHEN EMI is 25% of your take home after tax salary

    WHEN quality of life within the condo seems worth it (which means DDA or Dwarka flat is out, newer GGN style condos are worth it)

    WHEN you have job security

    WHEN you are over 33-40 years old (depending on career) and married with complete family

    WHEN you can do proper retirement planning


    Khbaribal, fact remains that you hunted for the bargain at the right time - and you found it.

    In Delhi they did not exit. I also hunted for a firesale price for ready built, but did not find it, except for Omaxe Grandwoods in 2009 May. I considered Omaxe high risk (they still havent delivered even though structure was finished in May 2009) and stayed away.

    There was no such firesale in Sohna road Gurgaon, where there were ready to move flats. Builder had no bookings left to sell and owners were not selling at such low prices.

    Finally I booked in a couple of projects - it was a good time for booking as well, I got very low prices. I am happy.

    Fact remains - bargains were few and far between for quite a few who hunted at the right time, even after recognising that time was right. Within 6 months, prices were back up.

    I am not a research analyst and do not care to back up my statements with data - if you disagree, feel free to do so. I base all my posts only on my own gut instinct - take it or leave it.

    I say WHEN you can put down 50% (or 60% would be better)

    WHEN EMI is 25% of your take home after tax salary

    WHEN quality of life within the condo seems worth it (which means DDA or Dwarka flat is out, newer GGN style condos are worth it)

    WHEN you have job security

    WHEN you are over 33-40 years old (depending on career) and married with complete family

    WHEN you can do proper retirement planning


    Khbaribal, fact remains that you hunted for the bargain at the right time - and you found it.

    In Delhi they did not exit. I also hunted for a firesale price for ready built, but did not find it, except for Omaxe Grandwoods in 2009 May. I considered Omaxe high risk (they still havent delivered even though structure was finished in May 2009) and stayed away.

    There was no such firesale in Sohna road Gurgaon, where there were ready to move flats. Builder had no bookings left to sell and owners were not selling at such low prices.

    Finally I booked in a couple of projects - it was a good time for booking as well, I got very low prices. I am happy.

    Fact remains - bargains were few and far between for quite a few who hunted at the right time, even after recognising that time was right. Within 6 months, prices were back up.

    I am not a research analyst and do not care to back up my statements with data - if you disagree, feel free to do so. I base all my posts only on my own gut instinct - take it or leave it.

    I say WHEN you can put down 50% (or 60% would be better)

    WHEN EMI is 25% of your take home after tax salary

    WHEN quality of life within the condo seems worth it (which means DDA or Dwarka flat is out, newer GGN style condos are worth it)

    WHEN you have job security

    WHEN you are over 33-40 years old (depending on career) and married with complete family

    WHEN you can do proper retirement planning


    Khbaribal, fact remains that you hunted for the bargain at the right time - and you found it.

    In Delhi they did not exit. I also hunted for a firesale price for ready built, but did not find it, except for Omaxe Grandwoods in 2009 May. I considered Omaxe high risk (they still havent delivered even though structure was finished in May 2009) and stayed away.

    There was no such firesale in Sohna road Gurgaon, where there were ready to move flats. Builder had no bookings left to sell and owners were not selling at such low prices.

    Finally I booked in a couple of projects - it was a good time for booking as well, I got very low prices. I am happy.

    Fact remains - bargains were few and far between for quite a few who hunted at the right time, even after recognising that time was right. Within 6 months, prices were back up.

    I am not a research analyst and do not care to back up my statements with data - if you disagree, feel free to do so. I base all my posts only on my own gut instinct - take it or leave it.
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by wiseman


    Be a Bull as well as a Bear all the time.

    cheers

    Karthik calling Karthik ... :)
    CommentQuote