Hereby I will prove how the realty boomers arguments are false.

What are the boomers arguments?

1.) Buy today, houses always increase in value in the long run.
WRONG. House prices cannot increase more than incomes in the long run. This is obvious if you think about it. If house prices go up more than people can afford to pay, buying stops, like it has stopped now.
Even Warren Buffett have pointed out that houses don't increase in intrinsic value. Unless there's a bubble or a crash, house prices simply reflect current salaries and interest rates. If a house is 100 years old, it's value in sheltering you is exactly the same as it was 100 years ago. Then came the maintenance as the house didn't renovate itself. It also has taxes, and insurance - costs that always increase and never go away. The price of the house went up about as much as salaries went up.
To put this is simple perspective, vegetable were costing Rs.5-6/kg when 5 digit salary was a rarity.
Today, the prices have gone up by about 4 times but so have the salaries. So, sounds very much like the reasoning people use now when they talk about how much their father's house appreciated "in the long run" without considering that salaries rose a proportional amount.

2.) Renting is just wastage of money.
WRONG. As said before renting is now much cheaper per month than owning. If you don't rent, you either:

* Have a mortgage, in which case you are throwing away money on interest, tax, insurance, maintenance, costs that increase forever.
* Own outright, in which case you are throwing away the extra income you could get by converting your house to cash, investing in bonds, and renting a similar place to live for much less money. This extra income is sufficient for emergency expenses,retirement etc.

Either way, owners lose much more money every month than renters and that's assuming prices don't correct to very high level & everything is smooth in the economy.

3.) As a renter, you won't have any money left as you will spend them on vacations,cars & hence won't have equity/savings etc.
WRONG. Equity is just money. Renters are actually in a better position to build equity/savings through investing in anything but housing. Renters can get rich much faster than owners, just by investing in conservative stocks & bonds.

* Owners are losing every month by paying much more for interest than they would pay for rent. The tax deduction does not come close to making owing competitive with renting.
* Owners must pay taxes simply to own a house. That is not true of stocks, bonds, or any other asset that can build equity/savings. Only houses are such a guaranteed drain on cash.
* Owners must insure a house, but not most other investments.
* Owners must pay to repair a house, but not a stock or a bond.
* Owners lose their money as house prices reduce. The EMI's remain constant in spite of reduction in rates. At the end of loan tenure, they would have paid almost twice than that of current renters who will buy at logical rates. Keep interest rates in mind. Most of the EMI is not principal amount but interest.

4.) There are great tax advantages to owning a house.
WRONG. Many people believe you can just reduce your income tax by the amount you pay in interest, but they are wrong. Buyers may not deduct interest from income tax; they deduct interest from taxable income. And even then, the tax advantage is not significant compared to the large monthly loss from owning.

If you don't own a house but want to live in one, your choice is to rent a house or rent money to buy a house. To rent money is to take out a loan. A mortgage is a money-rental agreement. House renters take no risk at all, but money-renting owners take on the huge risk of falling house prices, as well as all the costs of repairs, insurance, property taxes, etc.

5.) RE is based on local factors, it's not a national phenomenon. RE of Delhi-NCR,Bangalore & rest of the cities has nothing to do with Pune RE.
WRONG. Lending rates remain the same throughout the country. ALL loans are harder to get. This will drive prices down everywhere.

6.) A rental house provides good income. So, you can rent if you have purchased as investment.
WRONG. Rental houses provide very poor income in hyped areas and certainly cannot cover mortgage payments. Remember there is almost 300% difference between EMIs & rent for the same house.

It's pointless to do the work of being a landlord if you can make more money with no risk, no work, and no state income tax by investing in assured good returns bond.

7.) If owning is a loss in monthly cash flow, but appreciation will make up for it.
WRONG. Appreciation is negative. Prices are going down. It only adds to the injury of already high EMI's.

8.) As soon as prices drop a little, the number of buyers on the sidelines willing to jump back in increases.
WRONG. There are very few buyers left, and those who do want to buy will be limited by increasing difficulty of borrowing now that many house owners are near bankrupt as they don't save anything at the end of the month due to high EMI's.
No one has to buy, but there will be more and more people who have no choice but to sell as their payments rise. That will keep driving prices downward for a long time.

9.) House prices never fall atleast in Pune.
WRONG. If you see the RE scenario of 1996, prices crashed by 50% & took a whole 7+ years to recover.
Exact 1996 scenario may not be there today but strong correction is inevitable across the city.

10.) House prices don't fall to zero like stock prices, so it's safer to invest in real estate.
WRONG. House prices won't be zero, but the equity or the principal amount you paid can be zero or even negative. What you will pay as EMIs later in actual terms is not for the principal amount but only the interest as house prices dip. So, you will be only serving the bank.

11.) Prices will soften gradually, won't crash immediately.
WRONG. Prices are falling off a cliff. No one knows exactly what will happen, but it looks like prices will continue to fall for long time. These are just more manipulation of buyer emotions, to get them to buy even while prices are falling.

12.) The bubble prices were driven by supply and demand alone.
WRONG. Prices were driven by low interest rates and risky loans & good returns for investors in initial phases of boom in 2004-05.
Prices went up, interest rates went up & buyers savings went down. So prices are violating the most basic assumptions about supply and demand.

13.) There is lack of land.
WRONG. Ample of land is available & continue to be even in future in Pune. Sales volume are down. Even in Japan (small country with less land), prices went down. Current prices here are the same as that of 23 years ago. If we really had a housing shortage, there would not be so many vacant rentals.

14.) If you don't own, you'll live in a cheap neighborhood later.
WRONG. For the any given monthly payment, you can rent a much better house than you can buy. Renters live better, not worse. There are downsides to renting, such as being told to move at the end of your lease, or having your rent raised, but since there are thousands of vacant rentals, you can take your pick and be quite happy renting during the crash. There are similar but worse problems for owners anyway, such as being fired and losing your house, or having your interest rate and property taxes adjust upward. Remember, property taxes are forever.

15.) There's always someone predicting a real estate crash.
TRUE, yet irrelevant. There are very real crashes every decade or so. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

16.) Local incomes justify the high prices.
WRONG. The mortgage should be more than your 3 years earning. It is much higher today. Most are already in danger/red zone.

17.) You have to live somewhere.
CORRECT. But that doesn't mean you should waste your life savings on a bad investment. You can live in a better house for much less money by renting during the down slide in RE.

18.) It's not a house, it's a home.
WRONG. Wherever one lives in it is home, be it apartment, condo, bungalow , mansion or house. Calling a house a "home" is a manipulation of your emotions for profit.

19.) If you don't buy now, you'll never get another chance.
WRONG. History proves otherwise.
Here's a beautiful quote from a analyst:-
"The real issue isn't whether you will be stuck being a renter all your life, she says. Its whether you'll get so scared about being shut out that you'll buy at the market's peak and be stuck in a property you can't afford or sell."

20.) It would take major economic recession or a major earthquake that wipes out this area in order for the price to fall by over 50%.
WRONG. Even today, if the prices fall by 50%, there will still be very few people who can buy at this levels due to uncertainty in jobs & most importantly high EMIs. Also, look at the rental rates for equivalent houses. Which loss per month is larger? EMI or rent?

contd....
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  • Real, I recently read somewhere that rental return in Dubai has collapsed = no rental returns can be expected at all - it is a dead (dud) investment if you put money into Dubai.

    Expected recovery likely to take 10+ years in Dubai.

    Dont buy in Dubai now - it is a value trap
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  • Lets Compare India and China

    Originally Posted by puser
    are these revised rates? thought china real estate had crashed :o


    Hi

    Yes this must be revised rates. As this is based on website. THere are many factors or similarities on Real estate in China and India.

    1. India has black money need to stash somewhere. China lacks democracy. So they fear govenrment will take away bank balance. So people invest in hard assets. China has also many empty apartments called as Ghost cities, so there are many speculators in China. So India and China both are hoarding assets to some degree. Black money India property (x2)

    2. Hot money is coming to India and China both. China hot money also goes into productive and property sectors. This can be partly measured by Fx reserves. China 10 times fx reserve as compared to India. China (X10)

    3. China world's biggest manufacturing BPO. China 1.5 trillion. India exports $600 billion (300 goods and 300 services estimated.)
    List of countries by exports - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    India's share in global service exports to rise to 6pc by 2012 - Economic Times (China X2)

    4. India and China corruption comparable. China 3.5 and India 3.3 (higher number is better).

    Corruption Perceptions Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    5. China mortgage rates 4 - 5% . India 10.25% (China X2)

    China raises mortgage rates in line with interest rates | Reuters

    6. China land mass 9.9 million KM. India 3.3 KM. So India property price multiplier (X3)

    Now considering above

    Due to India Black money and Land area - Property price factor 2X3 = 6 for India.

    Due to Forex reserve, exports and Mortgage rates China factor (10X2X2 = 40).

    So India China Property ratio 6 : 40. Reduced to 1:7 Let's assume many inaccuracies and missing factors (China pegged exchange rate, China lower inflation than India) and ratio should be 1:2. Considering China price at 2.5 crore India price should be at 1.25 crore.

    China and India are/were growing economies.
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  • Small correction, sorry!

    Originally Posted by amitshah
    Hi

    Yes this must be revised rates. As this is based on website. THere are many factors or similarities on Real estate in China and India.

    3. China world's biggest manufacturing BPO. China 1.5 trillion. India exports $600 billion (300 goods and 300 services estimated.)



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India

    India's total external trade is around $606 Billion. Of this

    - $247.4 billion (2010) is in exports

    - $359.3 billion (2010) is imports

    Our Trade Deficit is a healthy $112 Billion and is killing us! Since much of our imports is oil, rising oil prices will kill us sooner! Lets start cycling like the Chinese used to do before they boomed! :D

    cheers
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  • Wisey, India is sustaining 100% taxes on petroleum products - it is our biggest revenue earner.

    If govt forgos revenue from oil, prices will halve. So we can easily live with 200 dollar oil.

    Problem is our govt is lazy - it is easy to tax a raw material controlled by state companies. It is difficult to tax private companies - or IT officiasls find it lucrative to accept bribes to forgo tax from these companies.

    So we have hefty oil tax (some 1/3rd of all revenue for center and states.

    With govt like ours, who needs enemies?
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  • Originally Posted by Venkytalks
    Good analysis.

    Currently, prices in USA, China and Mumbai are same !!!!! :bab (45):

    USA has good income and good amenities.

    China has good amenities but not the income to sustain these prices.

    India has neither the amenities nor the income.

    Something has to give way - this crazy imbalance is not sustainable. I wonder what will give way - house price? currency? interest rate? Inflation? Recession?



    Couldn't agree more.

    Just yesterday, I was trying to haggle with one of our customers (a big US bank) for One/Two dollars more (per hour) for an IT resource we were providing them. The customer's question was "is the cost of living on a rise in India or what?" I said a decent 3bhk costs equivalent of $150k on the outskirts - she was stunned. After a pause, she said that is the average rate for similar/bigger house (read bungalow) in most US cities. She finally granted me a dollar hike per hour and said - "Not sure how long you guys will stay competitive at this rate?" She couldn't be more accurate - unless we reign in the runaway inflation (especiall RE), we are heading for a huge trouble. Then we will have to figure out what the heck to do with the 20L unemployed IT guys. See the Infy and TCS results - things are not so rosy anymore.
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  • Originally Posted by sunnybynight
    Couldn't agree more.

    Just yesterday, I was trying to haggle with one of our customers (a big US bank) for One/Two dollars more (per hour) for an IT resource we were providing them. The customer's question was "is the cost of living on a rise in India or what?" I said a decent 3bhk costs equivalent of $150k on the outskirts - she was stunned. After a pause, she said that is the average rate for similar/bigger house (read bungalow) in most US cities. She finally granted me a dollar hike per hour and said - "Not sure how long you guys will stay competitive at this rate?" She couldn't be more accurate - unless we reign in the runaway inflation (especiall RE), we are heading for a huge trouble. Then we will have to figure out what the heck to do with the 20L unemployed IT guys. See the Infy and TCS results - things are not so rosy anymore.


    Every year 10L engineering students are coming out from different colleges of India (Source TOI last month, article on front page). Let aside the students coming out from other colleges, where these 10L engineers go every year, who will give them employment ? IT companies can hire maximum 3-4L engineers per year, what will happen to other? And most importantly, these new 10L engineers every year will face so much competitions (in terms of salary/career growth) from their peers and not every one will get decent salary to buy even 25L Rs flat (forget about the 45-50L flat).
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  • that is just people with engineering degrees

    Originally Posted by BlotJab
    Every year 10L engineering students are coming out from different colleges of India (Source TOI last month, article on front page). Let aside the students coming out from other colleges, where these 10L engineers go every year, who will give them employment ? IT companies can hire maximum 3-4L engineers per year, what will happen to other? And most importantly, these new 10L engineers every year will face so much competitions (in terms of salary/career growth) from their peers and not every one will get decent salary to buy even 25L Rs flat (forget about the 45-50L flat).


    people who have completed b.com , bsc join aptech/etc institues and learn programming , so you have to factor that in , in US people teach their spouses to do QA , they do get fired atleast 2 or 3 times before they learn and then they are also added to workforce
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  • In Pune, Back in 2002, Mahindra British Telecom (MBT) and Cognizant had laid off around 300-500 employees in a day when their employee count was 1500 to 2000 in pune.

    As IT companies employee number is crossing 100,000, be prepared to hear the layoffs in the tune of 25,000 to 50,000 in a month.

    Now with cost pressure, companies will try to move or start new centers in low cost cities. If that is not cost effective, they will expand their centers in the cost effective countries.

    It is very difficult to relocate the manufacturing centers. But very easy to relocate the IT centers. Hinjewadi can become next Detroit where flats will be available for 1 lac to 5 lacs. (Go to Zillow.com and search for homes in Detroit with sort order low to high and see what you can buy.) Don’t think that Indian IT companies are patriotic and will always keep the major business in India. The pressure on the Billing rate, unsustainable salary hikes, Indian tax implication due to change in Tax code for IT companies from “ export” to “manpower export” will drive these companies out. This is similar to the current situation in US where most of the US companies have major business outside of US.

    Plan accordingly and do not assume the salary hikes every year. At some point IT salary will lag the inflation.
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  • Originally Posted by kunjirs
    Don’t think that Indian IT companies are patriotic and will always keep the major business in India. The pressure on the Billing rate, unsustainable salary hikes, Indian tax implication due to change in Tax code for IT companies from “ export” to “manpower export” will drive these companies out. This is similar to the current situation in US where most of the US companies have major business outside of US.

    Plan accordingly and do not assume the salary hikes every year. At some point IT salary will lag the inflation.


    Sometime back there was news that Infosys and other BPO companies are teaching English to Chinese to open a backend office there, becoz they could outsource the already US-outsourced work there. They had plans also in Philippines, Thailand etc. If the US folks come to know that, they will cut these middle men.

    I think after the 2008 recession/crash, when market started picking up, these companies thought to hire more people than necessary and be prepared if more works come their way. But unfortunately, that didn't happen.

    Our only advantage is/was our grasp of the English language.
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by mymarji
    Sometime back there was news that Infosys and other BPO companies are teaching English to Chinese to open a backend office there, becoz they could outsource the already US-outsourced work there. They had plans also in Philippines, Thailand etc. If the US folks come to know that, they will cut these middle men.

    I think after the 2008 recession/crash, when market started picking up, these companies thought to hire more people than necessary and be prepared if more works come their way. But unfortunately, that didn't happen.

    Our only advantage is/was our grasp of the English language.


    Nothing could be further from truth.

    You are thinking US and Westerners are living in cuckoo land. If you don't know IBM, Accenture, CGEY operate some of the biggest operations in India and China. Bigger than Indian companies. If it was so easy they would have easily and long back abandoned India. Indians have a clear edge for now in IT compared to any other destination. That's why today after US, IBM's biggest centre in terms of number of people is in India. Additionally there are 1000s of Indians working in their local offices worldwide. If you walk in IBM US, UK or Australia or other countries office you would find alarming high number of Indian staff employed - I am not referring to landed guys or second generation migrants. These people are 1st generation migrants moved abroad in last 10-12 years and hired locally by the local offices of these companies.

    I don't want to overstate their skills and know first hand issues with Indian labour. But lets also not overcriticise or overblow their weak points.

    Originally Posted by mymarji

    I think after the 2008 recession/crash, when market started picking up, these companies thought to hire more people than necessary and be prepared if more works come their way. But unfortunately, that didn't happen.



    Again completely wrong. All of these companies actually got rid of more staff than necessary and last 2 years have been suffering. Today there is acute shortage of resources compared to demand. Managers are begging the resources not to leave and are going out of the way to retain people. Market is so hot that people are jumping with 30% increments. And this first hand experience and facts not wishful thinking or my views. Because I am facing these challenges every day.
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  • Originally Posted by kunjirs
    As IT companies employee number is crossing 100,000, be prepared to hear the layoffs in the tune of 25,000 to 50,000 in a month.

    Now with cost pressure, companies will try to move or start new centers in low cost cities. If that is not cost effective, they will expand their centers in the cost effective countries.

    It is very difficult to relocate the manufacturing centers. But very easy to relocate the IT centers.


    Easier said than done. Some idiots in HR did that in 2009 and even today companies are facing issues in attracting and retaining talent.

    You need to think of wholistic picture. It took so much time for Hinjewadi to be effectively competing with other centres. Even today it has some way to go. It is not easy to attract the talent pool in so called low cost cities. As jobs will move elsewhere people will also move to other jobs.
    CommentQuote
  • Originally Posted by sunnybynight
    Couldn't agree more.

    Just yesterday, I was trying to haggle with one of our customers (a big US bank) for One/Two dollars more (per hour) for an IT resource we were providing them. The customer's question was "is the cost of living on a rise in India or what?" I said a decent 3bhk costs equivalent of $150k on the outskirts - she was stunned. After a pause, she said that is the average rate for similar/bigger house (read bungalow) in most US cities. She finally granted me a dollar hike per hour and said - "Not sure how long you guys will stay competitive at this rate?" She couldn't be more accurate - unless we reign in the runaway inflation (especiall RE), we are heading for a huge trouble. Then we will have to figure out what the heck to do with the 20L unemployed IT guys. See the Infy and TCS results - things are not so rosy anymore.


    With runaway inflation rupee will eventually give in and fall drastically making dollar rate cheaper again.

    I am not sure in which big US cities you get house for $150K. You dont get houses even in the UK for that price. At outskirt in London (real outskirt) two bed flats in semi decent locations are going at $400K and the cost of living is unbearably high. If you give them $20 an hour they would rather sit at home and do nothing. India is far from that situation.

    In India you talk of RE price inflation but rents are stable. For a person renting the overall monthly expense can be managed within less than $1000 a month. With severe competition this wont go much high. Supply side will always keep Indian labour rates cheaper. If people lose jobs they would rather work at lower rate than not work.

    In London outskirts rents are 1600 - 2000 USD per month plus council tax plus utilities plus TV license plus petrol at almost $2.5 per litre etc....So these countries are far from competiing with India and China on rate and costs.

    In India unfortunately the gap between rich and not rich will keep further increasing. A fewer people will hold many flats, land and other assets as they just have obscene amount of money and will continue as they are in volume business and have enormous black money. Inflation will keep assets prices in tact as no one in India believes in Rupee as a store of value in longer term. People who own these assets will happily keep renting those to those who cant. That's the scenario that will pan out more and more.
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  • Originally Posted by stoxxx

    I am not sure in which big US cities you get house for $150K. You dont get houses even in the UK for that price. At outskirt in London (real outskirt) two bed flats in semi decent locations are going at $400K and the cost of living is unbearably high. If you give them $20 an hour they would rather sit at home and do nothing. India is far from that situation.


    You can get good and decent houses in around $150K to $200K in Dallas area easily. Dallas area has a very good economic scene with many IT - Telecom companies around.




    In India you talk of RE price inflation but rents are stable. For a person renting the overall monthly expense can be managed within less than $1000 a month. With severe competition this wont go much high. Supply side will always keep Indian labour rates cheaper. If people lose jobs they would rather work at lower rate than not work.

    having a stable rent but increased prices indicates a bubble... and every bubble bursts with time... also this means in order to manage within $1000 per month, one will have to rent. Ownership is not possible considering the huge EMI


    In London outskirts rents are 1600 - 2000 USD per month plus council tax plus utilities plus TV license plus petrol at almost $2.5 per litre etc....So these countries are far from competiing with India and China on rate and costs.
    Mumbai home prices are comparable with London for many areas but London has world class infrastructure and there is no comparison with Mumbai.


    In India unfortunately the gap between rich and not rich will keep further increasing. A fewer people will hold many flats, land and other assets as they just have obscene amount of money and will continue as they are in volume business and have enormous black money. Inflation will keep assets prices in tact as no one in India believes in Rupee as a store of value in longer term. People who own these assets will happily keep renting those to those who cant. That's the scenario that will pan out more and more.
    All this is a good for a person with a black money but for a salaried person, buying a house on loan as investment is stupid since rate of return is not gurranteed and is purely speculative.. besides there is no liquidity at all.
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  • Indian IT companies are making Net profit in the range of 15-25% at today's rate and hence has a lot of headroom to let the profit fall and keep the wages going (global companies have PAT around 6-10%).

    Companies follow the pyramid structure and keep adding fresh graduates in order to keep the costs down. Entry level salary, for past 4 years, is constant at 2.5 lakhs to 2.8 lakhs per year and has not changed much. At 30% growth rate, companies giving 30% hike thus maintain a status quo of its internal costs, rather economies of scale increases profitability.
    Recent noise around Indian IT becoming expensive is more hoopla created by the companies to tame the salary hike and also a little bit of real pressure of growth slowing down to 15- 20%.

    US & UK are still 3 times more expensive then us. A 2 bed 700 sqft apartment at London costs $800K. Husband and wife working together generally takes a loan for 25 years to pay it off. Average salary in London is $50K and even with Health and School free, there are hardly any savings, rather each household has atleast $30K financial loan (excl. mortgage).

    Also, Indian IT companies are now moving towards Industrialized Services (services not directly dependent on bodies). All the top 5 biggies have put a target of 10% of the revenues to come from the Industrialized services by 2012 and thereafter growing further.

    Lets not write off the Indian IT story so soon.
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  • just read the American story in the link below

    Originally Posted by neerajbans
    Indian IT companies are making Net profit in the range of 15-25% at today's rate and hence has a lot of headroom to let the profit fall and keep the wages going (global companies have PAT around 6-10%).

    they already are at that range , anything below 25 % margin wipro/techm/infy will not even touch those business there are some exceptions , techm was doing well because BT had a stake in that company and so did AT/T that was the main reason why at/t projects were given to Techm but BT and AT/T sold their stake and now they are not even liable and are free to choose from any outsourcer they want and the other big company is Verizon and they are just breaking even .. wipro is taking all the "malayee" on an verage all people on visas are being rejected even for renewal ..

    Companies follow the pyramid structure and keep adding fresh graduates in order to keep the costs down. Entry level salary, for past 4 years, is constant at 2.5 lakhs to 2.8 lakhs per year and has not changed much. At 30% growth rate, companies giving 30% hike thus maintain a status quo of its internal costs, rather economies of scale increases profitability.
    Recent noise around Indian IT becoming expensive is more hoopla created by the companies to tame the salary hike and also a little bit of real pressure of growth slowing down to 15- 20%.

    US & UK are still 3 times more expensive then us. A 2 bed 700 sqft apartment at London costs $800K. Husband and wife working together generally takes a loan for 25 years to pay it off. Average salary in London is $50K and even with Health and School free, there are hardly any savings, rather each household has atleast $30K financial loan (excl. mortgage).

    Also, Indian IT companies are now moving towards Industrialized Services (services not directly dependent on bodies). All the top 5 biggies have put a target of 10% of the revenues to come from the Industrialized services by 2012 and thereafter growing further.

    Lets not write off the Indian IT story so soon.




    just read the American story in the link below Quote:


    t


    Down but not out: Voices of the long-term unemployed | The Lookout - Yahoo! News

    with this kind of stories floating in the market , people on Visas have been deported even though they had a valid visa and were eligible to enter US

    it does not matter if you have a valid visa or not , and I am not talking about mom and pop body shops I am talking about wipros, Techm , infy people who were deported when they went to India for vacation .. and the Port of entry officer just said that how come you have a higher pay than me .. and that is the reason one person got deported .. so things are going to get worse before they get better .. with next year being the election year in US politicians are falling over each other to please American people I wont be surpised if they stop B1/2( business visas) Infy is the prime example who exploited this loophole and is in the dock because of the Indian babugiri attitude and general disregard for the laws of the land where they conduct business and one of the manager who works there told my friend .. pls do not have your signature in any of those contracts as the signatory is the one who is going to be held liable( that is exactly the reason why Anil Ambi is out and his top executives are behind bars) .. man you guys should start coming out from under the rock you live under..
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